Discussions

Flawed logics

Posted July 15, 2014 by Silverghost in Open

commented on July 23, 2014
by Silverghost

Quote

22

The ideological principles of science logic today defines anything that can’t be proven scientifically can’t exist or is unlikely to exist, this means ghosts/spirits, OBE’s, telepathy, ESP and so on can’t exist within the present logical principles of modern day science.

Hypothetically, if science today couldn’t prove that the earth is spherical that would mean the Earth isn’t spherical to a scientist even though it is. This shows quite plainly that the logics used today by a number of science minded people are flawed.

If a science minded person uses only one reasoning process and/or one ideological principle, any deduction from this is obviously going to be flawed. Thank god not all science minded people use this kind of logics that I have mentioned here in this post, not all science minded people are dogmatic within their ideological set principles.

Science has changed dramatically and consistently ever since it evolved from philosophy and mysticism, the logics used today isn’t anything to what it was years ago and in another thousand years’ time I think the logics, that a number of science minded people think is the be and end today, isn’t going to be used by science minded people in another thousand years’ time.

Types of logic
3.1 Syllogistic logic
3.2 Propositional logic (sentential logic)
3.3 Predicate logic
3.4 Modal logic
3.5 Informal reasoning
3.6 Mathematical logic
3.7 Philosophical logic
3.8 Computational logic

  • 22 Comments  
  • Silverghost Jul 23, 2014

    "What question", the hypothetical question you answered of course that you didn't answer as a hypothetical question. Going by the rest of the response, you have no idea what the Dark ages actually pertain too, you must have only looked at one source, flawed logics.

    What period of time is exactly defined as the Dark Ages, you will find, with further research, there is no exact precise time, it depends on the area in question.

    I understand that the US has one of the biggest poverty per populous in the world, ask a slum dweller if they are living in the Dark ages of science.

    We are forced through, devious means, to praise the almighty science, that is quite obvious. Deception is the name of the game these days just like they were in the Dark Ages.

  • NoetPoet Jul 23, 2014

    "I would like my questions answered but that isn't going to happen obviously, this happened last time if I remember correctly. It was demanded I answer other people's questions but my questions were ignored. I am not going there again."

    What questions would those be? Please specify your questions and I will be happy to answer them.

    "Obviously I need to educate some people on the Dark Ages as well, does anyone on here know anything beyond the almighty praise the lord science?"

    This straw man is getting old Mathew.

    "The religious Dark Ages are known to be primarily of Europe, they did not affect other parts of the world to the same extent, the thirty year war is a good example of this. The Dark Ages of today are simular except it's affecting the whole world in one way or another which to me would make it worse. I wonder how long the war on termism is going to last? It shouldn't last as long of course because we have much deadlier weapons than ever in human history thanks to science, nuclear, biochemical, poisonous gases and so on it goes, but we do have more people to kill!! Science will find a way no doubt."

    The Thirty Years' War was in the 1600's, well after the Dark Ages. You clearly don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about. And by the way, things weren't much better outside of Europe in the Dark Ages: the middle east was being overrun by Islam, eastern Asia was full of peasant and nomad societies in frequent turmoil, and the handful of civilised areas of the New World didn't even have the wheel and/or were performing human blood sacrifices.

    "In the western developed countries we don’t seem to be effected by this modern day Dark Age, I wonder if you asked a family who has had their child taken and put into slavery of some kind, would they think this? What about the soldiers being killed by modern day weapons or the people effected by drugs from less developed countries. Drugs are made by magic obviously and not by chemistry which by the way is a science."

    Sure, lets not blame the religious and political fanatics who ABUSE science for their own stupid ends. Even in many poorer areas of the world, living conditions today are significantly better than they've been at any other time in history, and again I will point out to you that those areas that are closest to Dark Age conditions are also those where religious fundamentalism is most prevalent and attitudes towards science and education are the most unfavourable.

    "Today we have praise the almighty science and do whatever you like in the name of science."

    When exactly was the last time someone demanded that you praise "almighty science"? Again, I'd like to point out the irony and hypocrisy of you using a COMPUTER on the INTERNET to bash and vilify science..

  • Silverghost Jul 22, 2014

    Interesting perspective as always Ros. Yes we create the reality, the reality doesn't create us.

    I was having quite an interesting conversation with a Malaysian bloke a few weeks ago about the push and pull effect, the more we push away something the more we are pulling something else in. It's like the concept of action reaction, each action, no matter what it is, causes a reaction which in turn causes chaos.

    Western minded science is pushing away spirituality to pull in more of it's own principals, this reality wasn't created by one set of principle obviously but this isn't obvious to western based science because of their flawed logics. It's quite a nasty spiral of events and attitudes.

    What if we didn't push anything away to pull in something else? Like you have stipulated about us creating the weather, the weather would change for the better. Knowledge and logics has totally replaced wisdom.......pretty dumb I must say.

  • Anonymous Icon

    RealityOverScience Jul 22, 2014

    Modern science is an inadvertent manifestation of "neglect" syndrome, such that it is ...projecting... further and further into the "Something," unwittingly moving ...away from... the Universal Core/Answers, forgetting to "turn around" to the "Nothing" (Emptiness of all projection; reflection/*reflection*) to become aware of itself.

    The resulting CHAOS of war, terrorism, violent weather, earthquakes, human tragedies, etc. is coming from the increasing imbalances trying to draw it all back, the resistance of the Universal Core Physics Truth/Order to follow it into all that Chaos. (This is what I refer to in my Consciousness 101... thread and other posts regarding the Universe "playing chess"... if it's protecting 9 and you behave 3, you have no choice but to be confronted with 6, if you behave 5, you'll be forced to experience 4, if 1 then 8, and so on...

    Likewise, on a scale of polar opposition...

    Thinking/Left------------------X------------------Right/Feeling

    ...and all other YangXYin energy opposites, if your behavior leans too far to the left, you'll be drawn to the right (relative to the frequencyXintensity of your imbalance, and vice versa, on all levels of imbalance).

    When the collective unconscious convention and its equally unconscious "sciences" behave with persisting imbalance, the massive *energies* of all that CHAOS result in the horrors and tragedies of the evening/*EVEN*-ing news!

    As I've said, when science demands respect it hasn't actually yet ...earned..., and conventional-minded "authorities" around the world buy into that unconsciousness and ...emulate... that imbalance, there is inescapable hell to pay!

    We really ARE the *whether*/weather!

  • Silverghost Jul 21, 2014

    I would like my questions answered but that isn't going to happen obviously, this happened last time if I remember correctly. It was demanded I answer other people's questions but my questions were ignored. I am not going there again.

    Obviously I need to educate some people on the Dark Ages as well, does anyone on here know anything beyond the almighty praise the lord science?

    The religious Dark Ages are known to be primarily of Europe, they did not affect other parts of the world to the same extent, the thirty year war is a good example of this. The Dark Ages of today are simular except it's affecting the whole world in one way or another which to me would make it worse. I wonder how long the war on termism is going to last? It shouldn't last as long of course because we have much deadlier weapons than ever in human history thanks to science, nuclear, biochemical, poisonous gases and so on it goes, but we do have more people to kill!! Science will find a way no doubt.

    In the western developed countries we don’t seem to be effected by this modern day Dark Age, I wonder if you asked a family who has had their child taken and put into slavery of some kind, would they think this? What about the soldiers being killed by modern day weapons or the people effected by drugs from less developed countries. Drugs are made by magic obviously and not by chemistry which by the way is a science.

    I think some people need to get out of their holey praise the lord science principles and take a honest true look at the world. I haven’t even touched on the pollutants and the rest of the degradation of ourselves and the environment caused primarily by science advancements. Yes science can be very constructive but because science has become tainted by dogmatism, it prefers to stay ignorant to the harm it’s causing. Isn’t this what happened in the religious Dark Age, praise the lord and do whatever you like in the name of the lord. Today we have praise the almighty science and do whatever you like in the name of science. These mentalities are so similar to each other it’s not funny but of course if one has a fixation to a particular ideological principle; they won’t want to see this of course.

  • NoetPoet Jul 21, 2014

    "Pirating is just as frequents as ever, slavery in it’s many forms is flourishing, large parts of the world is dominated by drug and warlords. None of the above is supposed to have anything to do with Dark Age science even though these perpetrators use science in everything they do including using computers to track down victims. "

    But Mathew, surely your own use of computers and the internet in your (self-)righteous crusade to spread your 'wisdom' completely undermines your claim that we are in a "Dark Age" of science because a minority of people on the fringes of society use technology for nefarious ends? Incidentally the slavers, pirates, warlords and druglords of the modern world are found mostly in areas that are economically/technologically underdeveloped and/or gripped by religious fundamentalism. Countries where these problems are least prevalent on the other hand tend to be the most prosperous, have the most positive attitudes toward science, and have the lowest levels of religious adherence.

    I will repeat my questions:

    If you think that the present era is a "Dark Age" of science, then describe to us a period in history that wasn't a Dark Age. And while you're at it, tell us what major breakthroughs and discoveries have been made outside of "Dark Age" science in the last 200 years.

  • Silverghost Jul 21, 2014

    I find it strange how my points are being proven by people who are obviously dogmatic about a particular praise the lord almighty ideological principle such as science. My points are obviously being proved here how dogmatism can and do distort logics.

    This distortion of logics, through dogmatism, has distorted logics to the point that some people have no idea how to even answer a hypothetical question, not sure if they even know what a hypothetical question is because quite obviously my hypothetical question wasn't answered as a hypothetical question and of course it wasn't really answered at all as was expected.

    "Pirating is just as frequents as ever, slavery in it’s many forms is flourishing, large parts of the world is dominated by drug and warlords"

    None of the above is supposed to have anything to do with Dark Age science even though these perpetrators use science in everything they do including using computers to track down victims.

    How blind is this logics? It's as blind as the dogmatism is within an ideological principle, a principle that believes my ideological principle is the be and end all above all other ideologies. Going by the replies here, has certain science minded people really taken on the religious mentalities of the Dark Ages? The replies here certainly say that is exactly what has happened.

    What about joining a conversation making out one knows something about such conversations about a particular ideology when they obviously don’t but then slam/bash such ideologies, where is the sound logics in this?

    Utter blind faith within any ideological principle will distort the logics used within these ideologies, some science minded people are of utter blind faith as I have quite plainly proven here but of course not on my own, I needed certain people to participate in such an experiment.

    I could psychologically break this down even more but I think it would make it too personal so I won’t do that.

    It is obvious when anyone has a dogmatic fixation to particular ideological principle there logics is going to be flawed.

    The following is an interesting read but of course if I’m dogmatic this will again be utter nonsense as always.

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=sHysgDbRrrkC&pg=RA2-PA1981&lpg=RA2-PA1981&dq=dogmatism+and++logics&source=bl&ots=5BENTOaVBd&sig=wHxf_zrFhhRdNOpgl30T4ynPYQM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yZfNU7TlH4W48gX2zoHgDA&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAw#v=

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Jul 21, 2014

    For the record, I was banned from the site for a period for engaging in exchanges with Mr Matthew.
    I felt the banning was questionable and was primarily due to the outrageous complains made by Mr Matthew.
    My comments are public record here at INOS and I invite any and all to find even the hint of an "indent remark."

    There is "flawed logic" in responding to nonsense and I refuse to engage in such low minded discussions now that the fact of Mr Matthews return has been established.

  • NoetPoet Jul 20, 2014

    Oh wow, NaturalNews.com, well isn't that just the epitome of credible journalism!

    You take a handful of incidences and imagine that they tarnish the entirety of science and technology. Meanwhile you completely ignore that vast benefits that science has yielded for humanity, including the very computer which you are now hypocritically using to bash science! You also conveniently ignore that damage caused by these incidences is also being repaired using - wait for it - science and technology!

    If you think that the present era is a "Dark Age" of science, then describe to us a period in history that wasn't a Dark Age. And while you're at it, tell us what major breakthroughs and discoveries have been made outside of "Dark Age" science in the last 200 years.

  • Silverghost Jul 20, 2014

    "None of which has anything to do with a supposed "Dark Age" of science."

    I'm sure chemistry is a science and one needs chemistry skills to produce more lethally potent drugs plus technology is used to elude the authorities but of course as always I'm wrong. I know!! These people use magic, why didn't I think of this before!!

    Maybe the exploding leaking nuclear reactors are produced by magic as well, I know now; all pollution is done through magic not through science and technological advancements, silly me!!

    Yes science can be constructive but it can be just as destructive…….

    http://www.naturalnews.com/035790_scientific_suicide_humans.html#

    I know this was pointless supplying a link to prove my point because it doesn’t praise the almighty science as the be and end all but here we go anyway.

  • NoetPoet Jul 20, 2014

    "Pirating is just as frequents as ever, slavery in it’s many forms is flourishing, large parts of the world is dominated by drug and warlords"

    None of which has anything to do with a supposed "Dark Age" of science. These are political, social and economic issues, they are not issues of scientiific practice or the intellectual climate. Again I point to all the amazing marvels that modern science has produced, things which would have been dismissed as fantasy even 100 years ago. Furthermore, look at the social and economic benefits that modern science has imparted: improved food safety and water quality, social networking, vastly increased wealth and prosperity, greater life expectancies, a richer diversity of possible career paths. If the present age is a "Dark Age of Science", then that can only mean that ALL of human history before the present has also been a Dark Age, and much darker than the present "Dark Age" at that!

    For someone who goes on about how undogmatic they are, you sure are eager to blame science and technology for all the woes of the world! But I suppose that's par for the course with you, isn't it Mathew?

  • Silverghost Jul 20, 2014

    dustproduction, this is the only time I am going to respond to you for reasons I have already pointed out.

    You were also banned from this site for making indecent remarks at the same time, I didn't come straight back because I became involved in discussions with far less bias/radical people on other sites discussing similar topics.

    I find your reply here quite dishonest and deceptive, you certainly haven't changed much have you?

    The reason I'm using Silverghost now is my business, at least I'm not stuck in a rut, I love change and new ideas.

    I will tell you something, it was queried by an IONS staff member, after my ban, if I was going to come back or not, it seemed they wanted me back, I said it was very unlikely however, being an idiot, here I am again. I think the persons name was Anna Costello but I could be wrong, check up on this if you like, see how honest I actually am.

    I will tell you something now, psychologically, dishonest people do not like honest people and will do anything to defame them......

  • Silverghost Jul 20, 2014

    Pirating is just as frequents as ever, slavery in it’s many forms is flourishing, large parts of the world is dominated by drug and warlords and the rest of the world is corrupted by high officials who have also corrupted science.

    Much of the misery that these things create is happening because of science/technological advancements. The people that these actions affect, which are supported by science/technology, do live in the Dark ages of the modern age. I wonder if a scientist who was forced into prostitution at 11 yrs old would still see science as the almighty one to be praised by all as the be and end all. This sounds so much like religious Dark Age mentality it’s not funny, praise the almighty science no matter what…….love the blind faith within science today by some.

    How much of the world is being continuingly polluted by science/technology? See how dogmatism/ fanaticism gives one a bias view, there is another side to science/technology but dogmatic fanatics won’t or can’t see this of course.

    I’m just not into fanaticism………yes I know, because I’m not also into fanaticism my logics is flawed but that is typical and very much expected.

    I just love the bias attitude…….again thank God not all science minded people think like this.

    I have spoken to a few scientists, they are certainly not as fanatic as this and their logics are much sounder in part. As IONS shows, not all scientist are closed off to other ideological principles as being plausible.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Jul 20, 2014

    This is off topic but needs to be clarified:
    "Silverghost" are you cleared to be back on the discussions?
    I ask this since you have a new profile. It was apparent that your old profile was absent from the discussions for sometime because you misbehaved here.

  • NoetPoet Jul 20, 2014

    "I just had my points proved about flawed logics and dogmatism and again the question is still being circumnavigated around by innuendoes and flawed logics as always."

    I answered your question directly, I did not "circumnavigate" it at all. Exactly what flawed "logics" did my response contain?
    There was no innuendo in my response, which leads me to think that you are either lying or you don't know what the word "innuendo" means.

    "Dogmatism reign supreme in Dark Age religion as dogmatism reigns supreme in modern day Dark Age sciences, thank God not all science minded people think this dogmatically and egotistically."

    Modern day Dark Age sciences huh? Are these the same "Dark Age" sciences that gave us computers, the internet, satellites, MRI machines, stem cell medicine and a thousand other wonders that would have been inconceivable even just 100 years ago?? Prey tell, what major discoveries have been made recently outside of those "Dark Age" sciences?

  • Silverghost Jul 19, 2014

    I just had my points proved about flawed logics and dogmatism and again the question is still being circumnavigated around by innuendoes and flawed logics as always.

    Is innuendoes a part of this flawed logics of some science minded people? It would seem so…..

    Any ideological principle, like science and religion, is going to be flawed within their findings if dogmatism reigns supreme within these ideologies, it is so obvious, going by these replies, that dogmatism is rampant within certain science minded people so how can any evaluation by these people be taken as proof or taken seriously in anyway?

    Dogmatism reign supreme in Dark Age religion as dogmatism reigns supreme in modern day Dark Age sciences, thank God not all science minded people think this dogmatically and egotistically. Dogmatism and egotism do give us flawed principles as is shown quite plainly here.

    Anyone who thinks their ideological principle is the be and end all is obviously dogmatic within their principals and subsequent evaluations, science nor religion is certainly not the be and end all but it is to some who use flawed logics.

    It is funny how we have ended up with the same Dark Age dogmatic mentality within science today but of course as always certain people within this ideological principle won’t see this within their own almighty praise the lord ideology. We haven’t come very far have we within our mentality and our flawed logics; we are still praising an ideological principle above all other principles!!

  • NoetPoet Jul 19, 2014

    "I find it funny how certain types of people avoid answering the following question, if science today couldn’t prove that the earth is spherical that would have to mean the Earth isn’t spherical to a scientist even though it is? Yes of course, so what does this prove? This proves certain science ideological principles are obviously majorly flawed!!"

    Your question is ridiculous. The Earth IS spherical (well actually it's an oblate spheroid, but let's not quibble over details). How do we know the Earth is spherical? Precisely because it has been verified by SCIENTIFIC observation!. The Earth's spherical nature is an empirical reality, and because science is all about forming and testing hypotheses based on observations of empirical reality, science is therefore bound to come to the conclusion *based on empirical evidence* that the Earth is in fact spherical. Which is exactly what *has* happened: science has ALREADY proven the spherical nature of the Earth precisely *because* the Earth is actually spherical!

    You have proven nothing here: all you have done is offered an absurd hypothetical situation which *completely* contradicts reality and used it to show that science would be seriously flawed if your absurd hypothetical situation were in fact true. Ya don't say?!

    "Let’s look at this in a different way, what if somehow science could prove that the Earth isn’t spherical, would this discount any further discoveries or thoughts on the world being spherical? Using the present logics that proves the world isn’t spherical; yes this would discount any further studies or thoughts on this matter, is this truly logical? No of course not but many science minded people use this kind of logics today on a regular basis without being aware in how flawed it obviously is."

    What if this and what if that...all hypotheticals, and silly hypotheticals at that. Even IF science somehow *proved* that the Earth isn't spherical, then further discoveries based on the assumption that it was spherical would be fundamentally flawed and therefore invalid. Of course that hasn't actually happened, and isn't at all likely to considering the *overwhelming* empirical evidence that the Earth IS spherical. That's the wonderful thing about science: it acquires knowledge about the world in a way which is both self-correcting and accumulative (i.e. building upon itself).

  • NoetPoet Jul 19, 2014

    "Let’s say science can prove that ESP is nonsense today even though science isn’t about facts or can only prove or disprove anything to our present technological capabilities, does this presently discount any further technological advancement in the future proving ESP does exist after all? It would certainly seem so because it’s proven to be nonsense in the present moment so anyone using this kind of logics won’t even consider further advancements."

    Science can show that all hypotheses thus far put forward about how ESP works do not stand up to testing and scrutiny. In other words, all those hypotheses have been shown to be scientific DEAD ENDS. You can't keep travelling forward if you're in a cul-de-sac. If you have a new hypothesis about how ESP might work which you think could stand up to scientific scrutiny, then by all means share it with the world. Until then, scientists will quite rightly retain the null hypothesis that doesn't posit the existence of ESP - note that this is *not* the same as definitively saying that ESP "doesn't exist" - because the available evidence overwhelmingly favours the null hypothesis.

    "Now what brings on new technological (SIC) advancements? Thinking beyond present provability. Newtons laws where accepted as truth because they were proven but with further advancements Einstein’s theories proved otherwise."

    Rubbish. Scientific advancement occurs either when a) new natural phenomena are discovered which can't be explained by existing scientific theories, and/or b) observed empirical data can not be adequately accounted for by existing theories. In either case empirical evidence is vital for scientific advancement, otherwise any new hypothesis is going to be nothing more than speculative BS. And FYI Einstein's theories do not invalidate or supersede Newtown's, rather they do a better job of explaining phenomena in certain situations (e.g. objects travelling at relativistic speeds). Newton's theories still do just as good a job of explaining the observed physical interactions of everyday objects as they did when they were first proposed.

  • Silverghost Jul 17, 2014

    I find it funny how certain types of people avoid answering the following question, if science today couldn’t prove that the earth is spherical that would have to mean the Earth isn’t spherical to a scientist even though it is? Yes of course, so what does this prove? This proves certain science ideological principles are obviously majorly flawed!!

    Let’s look at this in a different way, what if somehow science could prove that the Earth isn’t spherical, would this discount any further discoveries or thoughts on the world being spherical? Using the present logics that proves the world isn’t spherical; yes this would discount any further studies or thoughts on this matter, is this truly logical? No of course not but many science minded people use this kind of logics today on a regular basis without being aware in how flawed it obviously is.

    Let’s say science can prove that ESP is nonsense today even though science isn’t about facts or can only prove or disprove anything to our present technological capabilities, does this presently discount any further technological advancement in the future proving ESP does exist after all? It would certainly seem so because it’s proven to be nonsense in the present moment so anyone using this kind of logics won’t even consider further advancements.

    Now what brings on new technological advancements? Thinking beyond present provability. Newtons laws where accepted as truth because they were proven but with further advancements Einstein’s theories proved otherwise.

    The point is if Einstein used the same logics as, “if science today couldn’t prove that the earth is spherical that would have to mean the Earth isn’t spherical to a scientist even though it is” Einstein wouldn’t have proven his theory. Just because we can or can’t prove or disprove ESP exists, does this mean these findings are utter fact especially for eternity? It does seem that way to some but logically no, so what’s the problem with discussing ESP further? Dogmatism within certain people’s ideological principles, this is the be and end all right now, thank God Einstein didn’t think like this.

    What is causing certain science minded people to reason like this? Too much studying on other people’s thoughts and not thinking enough for themselves. Anyone can read and study up on science or any other ideological principles and seem intelligent but real intelligence come from thinking for yourself . How often do you come across people who have to use other people’s thoughts to prove their point? They are utterly unable to think for themselves, and unbeknownst to them, they take on certain flawed logics as mentioned here.

  • NoetPoet Jul 17, 2014

    "The ideological principles of science logic today defines anything that can’t be proven scientifically can’t exist or is unlikely to exist, this means ghosts/spirits, OBE’s, telepathy, ESP and so on can’t exist within the present logical principles of modern day science. "

    Nonsense. The reality is that the hypotheses put forward by believers for how those things are supposed to work and exist have been consistently discredited by scientific investigation and discovery. For example OBEs can be generated by manipulating the areas of the brain involved in proprioception, and ideas about how telepathic transfer of thoughts is supposed to occur (e.g. quantum effects, radio waves, the "ether") are either discredited by scientific investigation or based on misinterpretations of scientific knowledge in the first place.

  • Silverghost Jul 16, 2014

    I’m into science, psychology, philosophy, history and spirituality which gives me a broad reasoning process to evaluate by, discussing anything that is slightly intellectual with anyone who only uses one ideological principle, one set type of logics and one reasoning process to evaluate is logically pointless.

    Dogmatism in any ideological principle does not intellectually interest me as it makes no logical sense to reason in this way so I will not get into a discussion with anyone who doesn't at least use two types of reasoning processes, at least two types of logics and is interested in two contrasting ideological principles, what would be the point of child talk!!

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Jul 15, 2014

    Laughable.
    This is merely your interpretation or rather misunderstanding about science.
    This is the first false statement you make,"The ideological principles of science logic today defines anything that can’t be proven scientifically can’t exist."

    IONS employs a scientific "logic" to substantiate the very things you claim science rejects.
    Science is not a monolithic institution, rather it is a process that seeks to falsify its own hypothesis.

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