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Ignosticism...and accurately predictive universal models.

Posted Nov. 25, 2013 by A.R.K. in Open

commented on Nov. 26, 2013
by mrmathew1963

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Wikipedia: "Ignosticism or igtheism is the theological position that every other theological position assumes too much about the concept of God and other theological concepts; including (but not limited to) concepts such as faith, spirituality, heaven, hell, afterlife, damnation, salvation, sin and the soul.

Ignosticism is the view that a coherent definition of a given religious term or theological concept must be presented before the question of the existence or nature of said term can be meaningfully discussed."

Some history I found on the etymology of the word "God": Gad was the name of the pan-Semitic god of fortune, and is attested in ancient records of Aram and Arabia. Gad is also mentioned by the Book of Isaiah (Isaiah 65:11 - some translations simply call him (the god of) Fortune), as having been worshipped by a number of Hebrews during the babylonian captivity. Gad apparently differed from the god of destiny, who was known as Meni. The root verb in Gad means cut or divide, and from this comes the idea of fate being meted out.

Seems the roots of the concept/word we use today began in anthropomorphic favoritism and polythiestic, divided "gods".

What is a functional concept of "The God" un-anthropomorphized? What was the original story before the beginning of the telephone game through man's history?

There are still preserved ideas of a Unified One God embedded in all the cultural stories. Who's nature is Infinite, Eternal, Almighty, Perfect, Ever-living. The Source of causation, the prime mover...these ideas predate all the religions. Religion comes from the word re-ligio which means to unify. And it would be funny if it weren't so tragic that religion is used in divisive ways and they use ideas of God not to unify but to fortify their elitism.

So what is the answer to our ignorance? What is the sharable, self evident Truth? It's a common enough euphemism but is Truth really self evident? Seems not...but how many places do people really look? Where is the evidence of the works of such a Being and why is it even important? What would happen if science proved the existence of a "The God"?

What was before the beginning?

I invite you to freely use your imaginations and think the biggest and most functional thoughts that you can, without fear to wrestle with "God"........this is not about being right but about painting the landscape and map so that we can see what we have to work with. If any body of skilled thinkers can come up with a correctly predictive universal process model, its you guys and gals!

At your service,

The New Guy. =)

  • 12 Comments  
  • mrmathew1963 Nov 26, 2013

    G'day Dusty

    Not all spiritual ideology is based on the belief of a God I believe.

    I believe there is much more to us than we know but I don't believe in a higher self however I will refer to this more as God at times so that others will get the gist of where I am coming from.

    Ignosticism & igtheism is just another concepts or belief systems that people theologically hold a position too that every other theological position assumes too much about the concept of God and other theological concepts. Why would we assume that these theological beliefs & concepts are any more right & of the truth than any other theological belief/concept?

  • A.R.K. Nov 26, 2013

    The question I'm exploring is if any of the mechanics of universal causation are both revealed and intentionally obscured by the cultural stories of God. The idea they are encoded in a manner that would preserve information through a time when people would not understand the larger and more technical relationships of Reality. So make up a captivating story that insinuates the truth and the cultures would preserve it as legend and religions and hide things in plain site.

    Less interested in the subjective definition of "God" but the functional mechanics what "God" is doing. There are nearly as many names for a horse as there are languages, they all are describing the same thing from different perspectives. I take the position that what we have in most religions are the tails ends of "telephone games" some preserving the original story better than others. Branches of a larger tree, there is a vertical trunk.

    Even modern science relies on the infinite to start the big bang. They just reduce it to taking up no space, not really there, and certainly not alive....oh and time and space does not exist outside of the non-existent singularity...that then blows up for some reason. The position is inherently illogical, something (everything in fact) from nothing. I'm simply inverting the position of the infinite singularity to taking up all space forever in all directions and it has always been there (is still there outside and above the infinite universes). It is still a singularity of substance that nothing else is beside. Can you even imagine the informational feedback loops (aka consciousness) that a quark matter saturate could support??? It is described as infinitely electrically conductive.

    Whether it is alive or not, could be retroactively appreciated by the nature of what it produces. If it has organs made of space time bends pumped by an EM pillar and surrounding field, if it has outer and intra-cellular membranes, is accumulating information and if it is demonstrably growing....is it alive?

    Whether we can grok it's level of consciousness or not may be immaterial to being able to answer the question of whether the universe is a living being. What if it can be accurately deduced that the fields of the universe cause phi harmonic implosion and the quantum constants outside the universe exhibit phi ratio super symmetry....as that is one of the fundamental patterns of all we label as "living"

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Nov 26, 2013

    "God" is a type of language-game. And so i spiritualism

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Nov 26, 2013

    Since "Ignosticism The attitude, also known as igtheism, that the question of God's existence is meaningless, and so is arguing about it, since definitions of God cannot be proven to be either true or false.

    Then the question of spiritualism is equally "meaningless"

  • mrmathew1963 Nov 26, 2013

    G'day Ros

    Yes I would agree to what you have written here. The good thing is we don't explain the same thing in the same way which gives us a different perspective.

    The reason I feel why where not getting the right answers is because we are asking the wrong questions repeatedly. If we came out of our save house & used a different deductive reasoning processes we just might get the answers we are looking for.

  • mrmathew1963 Nov 26, 2013

    G'day A.R.K.

    I would also like to add; we tend to look at non-physical energy forms/fields as unintelligent mainly because to have intelligence we need a physical brain however that’s not true at all I feel. Pure consciousness, with or without form, is intelligence itself & is sort of experimenting in what it can create through time. If you could imagine intelligence itself forming certain ratios of certain vibratory frequency fields together to make up whatever it wants, we are but a product of a certain ratio of vibratory frequencies combined.

    The amazing thing is every ratio combined is a part of intelligence itself; it’s nothing like we do physically in a lab. We combine certain ratios together but there not directly from our own selves but everything intelligence itself creates is directly of itself I believe.

    I’m utterly dumb founded we still think to have intelligence we need a physical mind even when we believe the universe wasn’t created by an intelligence but of course there are scientist who believe otherwise.

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com.au/news/2004/03/0311_040311_biocosm.html
    http://www.intelligentuniverse.org/Contents%20and%20Excerpt.htm

  • mrmathew1963 Nov 26, 2013

    G'day A.R.K.

    Yes I would go along with this. My first blog was mostly about vibratory frequencies & in one blog I explained how everything was alive in one sense or another but of course this wasn't well received, nothing can exist unless it's vibrating but many thought not everything vibrates & of course is alive.

    Awareness in human terms is vibrational frequency fields interacting with each other making up whatever certain frequencies combine make up. Some of these frequency fields make up physicality others make up other things we can't comprehend at this point. When they say infinite it is infinite because the frequency ratios are limitless in what they can create, how many vibrational frequencies can we measure at present & how many sounds can we make by mixing these frequency fields together? This is only the tip of the iceberg.

  • A.R.K. Nov 26, 2013

    MrMathew: So how does awareness create form?

    I contend the question of how we arise to be paramount to human understanding. All of physical matter in the universe has a trajectory, like an arrow. All is in motion. Was it aimed? What is it aimed for? What is the purpose? What is the proper context so the the subtext of our experiences have relevance? What is the Image that we are created of and within? Pythagoras once said "Man and the universe are both created in the same image of God. Knowledge of one precludes knowledge of the other."

    If the universe has a holographic nature, then there is an original image that all parts are a part of. The map of the wholon.

    We have phrases in the bible "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the word was with God." That parallel parts of the Egyptian book of the coming forth by Day (wrongly translated as book of the dead) that read "I am the Eternal. I am that which created the Word. I am the Word. Well words (vibration in formation) can only travel through a medium. I propose that this Word vibrated the I.S. to the point of sono-luminescence cavitation.

    Look up sono-luminescence. Water is cavitated into a standing wave vacuum bubble by sound and a blue star appears in it's very center. "And God said (vibrated) "Let there be light!".....so far so good? ;)

    I contend the Universe is a standing wave void space where the substance and saturation of light is "removed" or carved away into a relative environment of finite space/time. This is a 3 way Newtonian contraction of a quark saturate- outwards to form the inner membrane of the bubble, inwards to a central point (the Lagrangian of the entire system), and downwards as light held perfectly still at the lowest scale. The quantum matrice. A vector equilibrium of space itself. This is a know tensor lattice called the isotropic vector matrix....aka a star-tetrahedral matrice

    The bubble around the central point describes the particle wave duality of light. As the rest of creation is now being flung through a perfectly still quantum field, it takes on "stuffness" shells around a central organizing point at a density relative to how fast it is flung......and it's appearance is self similar to the universal "pulled apart" nature.

    This contraction acts like a 3d radial prismation of the unified I.S. the rest of the cascade unfold the EM principle, the weak force and the strong force......but you would have to know the nested shape stack to understand what i am talking about. A 2d version is the avatar I am using.

    In the study of cymatics, it is sound/vibration that creates forms.

  • Anonymous Icon

    RealityOverScience Nov 26, 2013

    There are very definitely actual Answers that reveal the inescapable Universal Truth/Physics of where and what "God" is, and those physics are soooo close to being seen and realized that the expression "if it was a snake it would have bitten you" applies!

    Those physics are being revealed in everything folks say and do, every moment of their lives, following them everywhere they go, but they are too distracted to notice!

    The collective unconscious convention is so powerful, so overwhelming to them, that if their minds wander away from it and they begin to explore other options for any length of time, there are rules and regulations, and all sorts of mental health and religious labels to stop and redirect them.

    Throughout history, realizers have been punished, imprisoned, burned at the stake, executed and crucified for trying to wake that convention up! The collective unconscious convention is like a serious disease that overtakes billions upon billions of people's ability to reason healthfully, responsibly, and compassionately, and anyone who tries to help them find their way out of it is quickly dismissed and/or destroyed.

    As I've been saying, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink! An Awakened realizer can provide them with a direct and focused path, but they won't take it. Folks are too afraid to venture out of their comfort zones, where they (mistakenly) believe themselves as being in control. But people are automatons without their own Awakening/Consciousness/Enlightenment. Observing the situation from a place of Awareness, it is like watching billions of folks wearing blinders trying to find their way through a humongous garden maze, bumping into each other, fighting and enjoying the fight, and you're calling to them, "Over here! Over there," and "Now go right!," etc., but, lacking trust, they worry you're only trying to defeat them, and they defeat themselves in the process. Fear of losing (an illusion of) control, trust...are among their primary obstacles to becoming Awakened to the Answers they otherwise seek.

    So, the next approach is to provide them with questions to ask of themselves, to at least help them have something to explore, if they dare "go there," all the while still believing themselves in control:

    ..... When it comes to religion, any and all religions, what is everybody REALLY doing? (Overall, individually and collectively!)

    ..... Why are folks so craving of External Dependency and adamant to keep it that way?

    ..... Precisely what is it that they are Anthropomorphizing in the first place (no pun intended)?

    ..... What do they fear is going to happen if that Anthropomorphized External Dependency goes away?

  • mrmathew1963 Nov 26, 2013

    G'day A.R.K.

    This is going to sound lame but it's all to do with awareness. All creation is created by awareness,pure consciousness becoming aware of itself creates form & movement & the more aware consciousness becomes aware of itself, through us for example, the more movement & creativity is created.

    Look at human history, how much physical movement did we have in the cave man days, now compare this movement to now, now look at how aware we are compared to the cave man days. If you look at the rest of human history you will find the same comparison.

    We could look at the dark ages as being a time when we became less aware but at the same time traversed the seas more than ever. In certain circumstances we became less aware however in other areas we became more aware which is what probably helped us traverse the seas. Did becoming more fixated on God & religion assist in this endeavour? That's debatable however I think this shift in awareness did, we became more aware of God at the same time we became more fluent with our movement, consciousness itself I believe works in the same way.

    There is another problem here, we might be asking the wrong question like where did we stem from & how did we come to be or how was everything created. If pure consciousness which everything is of isn't of time none of these questions are really relevant however what is relevant is becoming more aware & becoming aware in different ways as we have done right throughout human history.

    I've got to get dinner now so I have got to stop it there.

  • A.R.K. Nov 25, 2013

    Thanks for the reply MrMathew!

    Interesting views on time, similar to early Zoroastrian concepts of Zurvan.

    In causal definitions of time I see several possibilities; One of them we are familiar with as the movement of stuff through space. A duration of orbit/oscillation of something. Another possibility is stuff not moving through space, a kind of frozen in the moment time. A third is the one that really interests me - All of space in all directions taken up by stuffness to the highest possible degree so that no stuff moves, only wave forms move through the infinite saturate. The I.S. God as an actual substance. A real "thing" that actually exists.

    What is mater? What is the nature of the stuffness we are familiar with and visibly composed of? 99.99999999% empty space right? And down at the proton level is also 99.999999% empty space so that this matter is composed of stuff-ness flung into orbital shell relationships. The proton is further organize as a very specific relationship of entangled quarks; two 2/3 up quarks and one 1/3 down quark.

    Turns out the matter we are made of is the lightest of 3 possible stable densities of quark. 2nd heavier are strange and charm quarks and even more dense are the top and bottom quarks.

    So anyway, I hypothesize that the I.S., the original rest form of matter before the beginning (of movement of stuff through space) is a quark soup aka quark or strange matter (strange matter is made of heavier quark). Strange matter made entirely of free quarks is all that empty space of the atom and spaces between atoms taken up by quarks. Billions of times denser and hotter than what we call dense matter. It is described as more stable than regular matter and it is hypothesized that all matter will eventually condense back into such a state. Quark/strange matter is also described as infinitely electrically conductive to the exclusion of magnetic fields, and quantum color superconductive meaning on quark can freely change into another and is not bound into a tri-fold relationship aka proton.

    One could imagine it like an ocean of electrified molten gold which turns everything it touches into more of the same.

    It is truly "Almighty" One might describe it as an all consuming fire.

    For any Big Bang model fans, you could think of this as the perspective from inside the infinitely dense singularity.....that takes up no space...then explodes for some reason.

    Okay so back to the "ocean of Bliss" or the body of God, The question I have is what creates a relative environment with space and flung apart mater inside of this eternal infinite saturate? What was in the beginning with "God" To be clear I define a beginning as the moment of separation of the finite from the infinite, of the establishing of a space for stuff to move around in aka a universe, "the beginning of time" our time down here.

    Anyone familiar with cymatics and sono-luminescence? =)

  • mrmathew1963 Nov 25, 2013


    Interesting stuff.

    When talking about a God/consciousness/source of creation we should remember we were not talking about time but something eternal so if it's eternal everything we are currently experiencing has always existed, nothing was created however this also includes time so time itself has also always existed as well which gives us a paradox.

    When they say God created all that is absolutely impossible because everything has always existed however this is where time comes into it, time is the creator not God remembering time has also always existed as well. Time is creating what we are experiencing because physical existence hasn’t always existed in time yes it only existed as pure consciousness which didn't didn’t give it form, time was needed to give pure consciousness form. Time actually created form not God. We egotistically want a God to have created us because it sounds better than time however if it wasn’t for having no time time wouldn’t exist I believe either & in fact it’s not a paradox after all. Time just couldn’t exist without pure consciousness which isn’t determined by time.

    This is like our universe, can planets, solar systems, galaxies exist without space which was obviously always their & wasn’t determined by time until we bring in form which is determined by time? You have God as pure consciousness & without this consciousness/God can form exist? The answer is no. Actually God isn’t representative of pure consciousness at all but of time because it’s time that creates, what we deem as God is only a part of what consciousness is if God is the creator of all.

    This brings us to truth; truth has no relevance as pure consciousness, because everything always existed, even as pure consciousness we have no time of when truth was created & if it wasn’t created what relevance would it have? However time gives truth relevance because now we have a time of creation of truth but only to the degree of creation which is determined by time & time has a habit in wiping out truths & reforming it into yet another truth which again is all governed by time & the controlling ego.

    Truth is only sort after by those who have controlling egos & the more we seek this truth the more the ego is in control & the more chaos we will be in. This is actually saying God is of the controlling ego because it can't exist without time but pure consciousness isn't determined by time so isn't of the controlling ego. How many years have we chased this God around & ended up more in chaos?

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