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Religion vs. Spirituality

Posted Feb. 24, 2012 by Jim Centi in Open

commented on Feb. 26, 2012
by slowlygetnthar



It seems that these discussions have become a mixture of spirituality and religion. Each of us may have words that distinguish between the two; I will offer my words:

Religion is supported by beliefs. True spirituality is an experience that does not require belief.

As a member of IONS, I am supportive of both science and spirituality. At the cutting edge of science is neuroscience. In professional journals, neuroscience proclaims that the human experience of self is an illusion. In its purest form, the experience of no self is a liberating spiritual experience.

I am hopeful that reconciliation between spirituality and science can be found in the proclamation of neuroscience and the spiritual experience of no self. If this is to occur, clear distinctions must be made between spirituality and religion. History reveals that the illusion of “earth at center of the universe” was only dismantled by overcoming obstinate resistance by religious dogmatism.

Unmasking the center of the universe illusion occurred during humanity’s infancy; the illusion of self is being slowly unmasked as humanity enters maturity…….Jim

  • slowlygetnthar Feb 26, 2012

    Sorry, DelamerDuverus, your response is so obtuse as to be indecipherable. Eschew obfuscation! Say it clearly so it doesn't sound like uncommon nonsense.

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    DelamerDuverus Feb 26, 2012

    A Deist once told me that there were no such things as demons. He thought all the talk about JeSus casting out demons was a myth, though he used the word, "poppycock", if we remember rightly. We explained that our mentor had the gift of seeing into the spirit world, and could see the aura and the energy lines of the body, could see ghosts and would help them if he could continue on with their journey, and he could see the entities and many forms of demons afflicting people. He saw black, wispy demons with red eyes which help project the Seven Deadly Sins at people to cause problems; he saw the grey-alien like demons at the doors of almost all buildings keeping a constant watch on who goes where and what they are thinking about and how to influence our thinking to their evil intent; and he saw the green, monkey demons which hang on humans like an albatross causing them odd behaviors. One man brought his son to our mentor because the youth obviously had an odd behavior of beating his chest and then opening his shirt to speak into it. The man had committed a murder and his son was suffering under his sin. We also now know another man who sees the same. A remote viewer saw an entity on George Bush's head speaking for George empathetically. He called it an Armageddon entity. Poppycock?

    We prefer to know rather than to believe. Our God, and He doesn't really care what we call Him as long as we call on Him, doesn't answer all our questions when we ask them, but in time lets us experience the truth so that we know.

    We only came to this forum because God led us to do so. He wanted us to see something. We have. Thanks, everyone, for sharing.

  • slowlygetnthar Feb 26, 2012

    With all due respect, I think your logic is flawed, DelamerDuverus. Just because humans do destructive things with divinely inspired messages doesn't mean the message is flawed. It means the human is flawed. Dismissing major religious texts as "junk" could even fall into this category.

    What I often find with those who have found new spiritual paths for themselves, is they insist the old one was wrong and discredit everything they encountered there. They become myopic with the blind self-assured brainwashing of their new dogma and behave arrogantly, dismissively of others, disrespectfully about others' beliefs, and proselytize til the cows come home. It doesn't mean they have found the truth, it just means they have some new dogma. Dognma does not = G*d...and...NO ONE HAS A MONOPOLY ON G*D.

    G*D's blessing is that we are part of G*d. We contain G*d light within us. G*D is in us. We are eternally connected to everything that is past, present, and future, via our connection to G*d. THAT IS ETERNAL. IT CAN NEVER BE TAKEN AWAY. So, there's no need to poo-poo Joshua, Moses, the bible, the woman you mention...etc.,...Cultivate the light in your soul. It doesn't involve manipulation by Satan. Spewing dogma and being derogatory about everything else is not going to make that happen. Fear-based spirituality seems purty counter-productive, doesn't it??????????? Cultivating the light in your soul involves opening the heart and stilling the mind to be receptive. That's easy, isn't it?

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    DelamerDuverus Feb 26, 2012

    One understanding of religion vs. spiritual began with knowing a man we called our mentor who heard God's voice and the reason we can say God is because we could see the fruits of his writings and they were good and peaceable and created a foundation of truth upon which we could rest our head, so-to-speak. A woman we met also heard a voice in her mind which guided her to do things, but the fruits of her god were not good, for it encouraged her to steal, to lie, and commit other sins, but it also threatened to kill her son if she didn't do what it asked. She called it her entity, and it did teleport her, perform miracles, and lead her to important information if she needed it, but it also trapped her in its web by giving her a vision and a "born-again" feeling.

    Our question was, what is going on here? Who can one trust? This goes back to the first time we read the Bible through and decided it was junk because why would God say don't kill, but then tell Joshua to go kill in His name? We wanted the truth and that was all we wanted.

    When God took pity on us and our pea brain, He began to speak to us to straighten things out. This is when He gave us an understanding about Satan, what we call the Alien Mind, and how it works to thwart humanity, and how being empathetic it could also come as the "Lord" and lie to humanity.

    We later learned that this woman had lost God's blessing from the sins of the father, and grandfather. Those sins visit unto the next generations, and when we lose God's blessing, we lose the protective veil that cover our mind which protects us from the worst of the Alien Mind. However, now anyone can lose this God's blessing through the use of drugs of abuse and SSRI like drugs.

    Constantine had a vision, "In this sign you will conquer", and through the handiwork of the Alien Mind turned a peaceful religion into one of killing. Joshua was similar, but he wasn't Hebrew, he was only of the riff-raff that Moses brought out of Egypt with the Hebrew. Several religions were brought into being where killing someone because they don't believe as they is justified because it is written in their holy book, because their prophet was told by "god" that this was truth. That's not the "humane" (to borrow a word from Kyrani) God that we know.

    While it is true that most humans are not evil, they are easily deceived. Yours truly was one of them, until we were straigtened out by the Giver of Truth, or God. If God be true, then all men are liars.

  • slowlygetnthar Feb 25, 2012

    I disagree that religions are a construct of Satan. I think they are a construct of humans, not Satan. I seriously doubt that most religions have been founded on ill-intent, though, as the saying goes, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

    I do think we are all prudent not to discuss tenets/dogmas of different religions in specifically derogatory manners, here, on this website. I do think it is okay to mention religious beliefs and practices that are pertinent to discussions, since many traditions have long held beliefs that are being born out in scientific examinations of the mind/consciousness/quantum mechanics. Really, I think the purpose of these IONS forums is to let us explore consciousness, spirit, mind, and science in our daily cognitive and numenistic experiences/realities--or something along those lines.

    I also think we could discuss spirit without discussing G*d, but it would be difficult, sometimes.

    I also think, judging from the overlong and involved religious statements some folks make on these forums, that some participants' motives may be to proselytize more than discuss, at times, and I hope we shy away from that. I really dislike the people who just post a website they want us to go visit, instead of keeping the topics and discussions relevant to the Noetic Sciences Institute's mission or even stating, first, how they think the websites posted are relevant to the threads. Again, I see these examples as folks trying to proselytize, instead of exploring the various possibilities folks want to discuss here.

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    DelamerDuverus Feb 25, 2012

    We often use religious terms to couch our understanding because some truth does spring from the Christian religion despite their other dogmas which are just that, dogmas, beliefs which lead us away from the truth. From our sojourn with Delamer Duverus to guide us in our understanding, we can now easily see that religion is often a product of Satan, what we call the Alien Mind, and its goal to thwart humanity by controlling our thinking. Satan knows that humanity desires something for which they don't understand, and so it tries to give it to us in the form of religion, something we will accept, though many times it is in error.

    We hesitate to write about specific religions and their dogmas, because we do not have an awareness of what is acceptable here on this forum. We do not want to offend.

    To us spirituality is simply the knowing that our Reason for Being is to serve our Creator as He serves us, to live by the Laws of God, and to cast out the Seven Deadly Sins. This may sound religious, but it is the Pattern which brought us to God and the Reason of Things.

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    Jim Centi Feb 25, 2012

    It is difficult to admit one is wrong, but I must do so with explanation.

    My dissatisfaction with the manner in which religion has begun to dominate these discussions led me unknowingly into the camp of the material reductionists who I have always viewed as having a limited view of reality in their denial of spirituality.

    I do believe that there is room in these discussions for dialogue relating to the distinction between spirituality and religion, but as I write this I am not eager to participate.

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    DelamerDuverus Feb 25, 2012

    Have been giving thought to the "illusions of self", and we think that slowlygetnthar is right, that the only illusion is that we think we are separate. We are not our body, of course, we each have an individual soul or ego, and we are a part of a Speciel Mind which gives us our connection to others, but our spirit or soul is real, because we can't imagine why God would be here trying to help humanity evolve if we weren't real.

    We feel certain that part of the maturation of our species is to gain that Oneness as we evolve, as we become less of a threat to the whole, and as we align our goals/desires with the Oneness, in our desire to serve it.

    We just watched a video on Nour Foundation, "To Be or Not To Be: The Self as Illusion" and it was Pim van Lommel through his research with near-death experiences who noted that many of those who experienced same felt a sense of greater connectedness, of unity, oneness.

  • slowlygetnthar Feb 24, 2012

    When I think of religion, I think of dogma. Basically, all religions have some pretty hard, fast rules about what constitutes the "right way of thinking," what are "absolute no-no's," and what may result in pennance, reconcilliation, partial or total ostracization from the herd. Spirituality, as separate from religion, may have less dogma associated with it, though I have met non-religious people who were dogmatic about their beliefs and associated lifestyles.

    I don't think that religion can be separated from spirituality because religions are an expression of spirituality. Whatever else religions may be, they most often have their roots in a shared interpretation of spiritual reality.

    Also, whether or not folks subscribe to a particular religion, they may have deeply spiritual experiences of the world, as do many of the folks in religious congregations. Non-religious spiritual and aspiritual people may have values that are cogent with those taught in religions, but theirs may have been derived/acquired from elsewhere. What they see as the origins of these beliefs, they may not judge to be spiritual, but others may think their ethics arose from exposure to others with religious beliefs!

    Anyway, I am not sure that true spiritual experience doesn't require belief. Wouldn't the idea that one has a spirit constitute a belief, in the first place? How does one reach Nirvana, if one doesn't experience oneself as self before experiencing oneself united with the One--and know that there is a difference????? Personally, I think the illusion is that we are ever separate in the first place.

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    DelamerDuverus Feb 24, 2012

    We agree. We prefer to know and to admit that we do not know, and then to ask for understanding. Belief gives no foundation. However, we often have things on the back-burner of our mind which we consider possibilities.

    The Mind of Man, our guidance, do not have names and though we use an Identification to name them, Delamer Duverus, loosely translating to mean "from the sea or giver of truth", it is only for our convenience. To them it is not who we are which makes us important, but only what we do to serve our people, our function, which gives us our importance. We can be a carpenter, a housewife and mother, or a teacher, researcher, etc.

    When He first came to us in 2001, He had us walk away from everything, even our family pictures. We trusted. Without the pictures, we keep in the present as our children have matured and don't keep them in the past. We keep heading for the future, turning to the Universal Mind for every need and decision we make.

    As well as being part of a Speciel Mind, we each have an individual memory, a soul or ego, a record of our experiences through our many concatenations, and these are all just memories, but does that make them an illusion in neuroscience? Is this what you mean in regard to illusion of self? It's very intriguing. We'll have to read more. Thanks.

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