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Good Vs Evil

Posted Nov. 3, 2011 by EthanT in Open

commented on May 11, 2012
by slowlygetnthar

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64

I was originally going to post this on another thread, but thought I would start a new one for better focus. what are your thoughts on Evil, why it exists, how real it is, and the root causes of suffering?

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Good implies evil, and evil implies good. You can't have one without the other. Just like talking about hot makes no sense, without being able to reference back to cold. So it is with any pair of opposites. If all life was androgynous, the terms male and female would never have been invented, because they would be unneeded concepts.

Perhaps you could call knowledge about and within the realm of the pairs of opposites (i.e. material life) “imperfect knowledge”.

Science tries to under these pairs of opposites and material life, in general, to high levels of precision. Take temperature - the measure of how hot, or cold, something is, with various scales like Fahrenheit, Celsius, Kelvin, Rankin, etc.

Perhaps you could call science (at least in the current state of affairs) the perfection of the study, or gain, of imperfect knowledge.

But, absolute good seems to imply the lack of evil. Of what need would there be to talk about good at that point? What point is there talking about hot, if there is no cold. Would anybody want to watch a black and white TV if the color black did not exist, and therefore none of the shades of grey either? You'd be staring at a white screen.

All that is eternal and truly “real”, comes from the realm beyond the pairs of opposites. This is one aspect of God - a plane of consciousness beyond the strife and tension created by the existence of pairs of opposites.

Perhaps direct experience of this plane of consciousness could be called “perfect knowledge”.

This undifferentiated source of energy, or plane of consciousness, continually shines into the material world and becomes differentiated. (This is part of the meaning behind the yin and yang symbol - an image of the interplay between the masculine and feminine principles/energies, which are, in fact, ultimately One). But, we do not normally recognize this, due to our lack of conscious awareness (our consciousness being the principle instrument of differentiation!)

As it says in Gospel of St Thomas: “The kingdom of heaven is spread out upon the Earth, but men do not see it"

The bodhisattva , called an “awakened one” in Buddhism, is a person who CAN see it. He physically walks within the world, but can mentally “see” beyond all pairs of opposites and is no longer bound by them. He therefore has no attachments to life, and no suffering, as a result.

  • 64 Comments  
  • slowlygetnthar May 11, 2012


    Marcus, I felt this glimmer of hope at the notion that we would eventually ascend the darker energy fields. How do you envision humans doing this, on a mass scale?

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction May 10, 2012

    1. Evil is NOT a lack of consciousness. Evil people know full well what they are doing. They mean to violate knowing that they violate and they do it without any conscience.
    Their "knowing is not your knowing. Read, The Brain on Trial, by D. Eagleman.
    All brains are not the same, the justice systems assumes they are.
    Eagleman asks what do we do if a tumor in your brain cause you to break the law?
    But you have the tumor removed.
    Was there evil that made you break the law?

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction May 10, 2012

    You at the illusion of the Lotto Labs cube http://www.sibleyguides.com/2010/05/color-illusion-and-thrush-identification/

    Two square that appear to be different are the same because of there context.
    The point is that good and bad exist, most of the time in the eye of the observer.
    And the observer can misjudge, as in observing the squares of the Lotto cube.

  • slowlygetnthar May 04, 2012


    Prayer is humbling. I also see it as reconnection/regrounding in the Infinite/Tao, which is humbling. Unifying with the Tao sorta subjugates the need for ego, power, control & other external trivialities.

    I was thinking of experiences I have had when a sort of negative energy creeps in and seizes the moment. Three times, I have been in crowds that rioted, quite suddenly. One was due to a sort of critical mass of alcohol, drugs, and Halloween-holiday-without-bounds frenzy in Boulder, Colorado. The other two times were when the hockey team, in Pittsburgh, won the Stanley Cup two years in a row.

    In the first instance, everything was fine at first, then, it was as if little electrical currents went through the crowd, and one or two folks started acting out. Then, more people were doing strange things, like climbing on trees and awnings and tearing them...then, it mushroomed and people started destroying things~~storefronts and car windshields. In the other two cases, euphoric crowds became destructive. I think the people took to the streets to cheer about the team, realized they were a force, walking down thoroughfares normally choked with traffic~so many roaming at once~ that they decided to start pushing boundaries~~throwing things, then, breaking small things, then, getting on city buses, breaking the windows, and rocking them to knock them over (with terrified passengers inside).

    In none of these instances was there any impetus other than this sort of collective surge towards deviance that was like a wave swelling and rolling through the crowd. I have long wondered if evil just rolled in and through or if primal angst just boiled over.

    Angst or evil? that is the question.

  • MarcusTAnthony May 03, 2012

    @slowlygetinthar,

    It's an interesting question. I believe that we can rise above such dark energy through acknowledging our ego states, especially the desire for power and control over others and life itself; and secondly by healing the wounded parts of ourselves. These are the two main ways we become ensnared in such 'dark' fields. I do believe that over time the human race will 'evolve' and transcend the darker fields in which it has been trapped for a long, long time.

    When I find myself channelling this 'dark' energy I spend time looking at my own need for power and control, or doing healing work with my emotional body/inner child. Then I pray to God, and ask that the energy be 'recycled' for the highest good of all. We have to admit that so much of this stuff occurs without our conscious awareness, and is out of immediate control. Therefore prayer is necessary. It's also humbling.

  • slowlygetnthar May 03, 2012

    I agree with MarcusTAnthony. We create these energy fields, and they are out there/here.

    Once an energy field is created, then, does it ever dissipate? I have thought that some places retain charged energy fields. I wonder if these act as vortexes, drawing other similar energies to them.

    Marcus, what do you think?

  • MarcusTAnthony May 02, 2012

    While it is fashionable to say that there is no good and evil, there are 'forces' (for want of a better word) of intention which a creative and destructive. This is not easy to communicate, but something I have seen and experinced many times as a clairvoyant and senstive. The central issue is that consciousness and intention are expressed through fields of intention, and these difffer enormously in their expression. Some are light, free, loving, gentle, other fields of consciousness are dark, shaming, destructive. The more power-and-control oriented the field, the darker and more destrcutive it is. Every one of us is greatly affected and manipulated by such fields, but only a few people are fully conscious of them. And once you become conscious of them, you sure as hell become highly motivated to avoid the darknesss and gravitate towards the light. I became conscious of them only through doing very deep work on my emotional body, which freed up my capacity to feel and perceive. It is not a gift - although I am a natural clairvoyant, which helps to understand them. Anyone can learn to feel at that level, if they are just prepared to be emotionally vulnerable enough.

    So good and evil do exist as forces. They are impersonal, but operate at a personal level through individuals and groups of individuals.

    It's not something many people - even those on a spiritual path - want to consider, but I am not in the habit of telling people what they want to hear.

  • slowlygetnthar May 02, 2012


    It's synchronity, Jim, that you would mention staring at a flower. Yesterday, I was marvelling at the tall lavender irises blooming in my garden. As I was swimming in the beauty at the center of one, my brain was momentarily speechless. Then, my left brain sputtered to a start, trying to assign words to the visual *bliss*. I wanted to tell my brain to "Be quiet!" and just take in the totality of the iris, but words were being assigned to the visually absorbed details: structure, symmetry, gold, center. I moved on, in the garden, not wanting to lose the iris bliss. The words stopped, and I could retain the mental experience of the iris.

  • Jim Centi May 01, 2012

    Slowlygetnthar,

    If we are balancing our check book or are required to utilize conceptual thought at the work we do, conceptual thought is required. There may be other exceptions, but I think you get my point.

    There are other modes of experience that we have hinted at that do not require conceptual thought as reflected in the row your boat lyrics. My point was that conceptual thought may be simply an expression of habitual behavior that does not always enhance the quality of our lives.

    When we look at a flower we can simply appreciate its beauty for several minutes. Why must we allow conceptual thought to come in and name it, categorize it, assign qualities to it and say I want one for my garden?

    Discussions relating to good and evil have been going on for centuries and it can be difficult to express what they have accomplished for us. Essentially they are conceptual constructs that I do not believe are inherent to the nature of reality. Of course, this depends on how far down rabbit hole you wish to go.

    When we engage in these discussions, what we are doing is exploring each other’s mental states. There are occasions we can learn from that, but as a general rule we would benefit by considering it as simply a form of entertainment.

    I have often referred to this as the amusement park of conceptual thought. This can be enjoyable as long as we recognize that we are in an amusement park and here for entertainment. We can leave the amusement park, listen to good music, play with our cat or simply watch with amusement the meaningless thoughts that pass through awareness; this does not require conceptualization.

    To answer your question, we are capable of much more than conceptualizing, but when we do conceptualize, there is value in being aware if we are accomplishing something, entertaining ourselves or simply engaging in habitual behavior.

    You ask such good questions. Responding to you is like enjoying one of the attractions at Disneyland.

  • slowlygetnthar May 01, 2012

    00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000ps! [My cat was typing]

    Well, are all these polarities~~good vs. evil~~just the result of the constructions of our brains? Is this all we are capable of conceptualizing?

  • Jim Centi May 01, 2012

    Good and evil exist only as fabrications of human thought.

  • slowlygetnthar Apr 29, 2012

    In the words of David Byrne: Good and evil~~You turn 'em loose and they turn into people!!!

    I liked the comment, previously, about Evil = lack of consciousness. I would add to that Evil = lack of empathy & consciousness resulting in the suffering or destruction of other life forms.

    Throughout my life, I have really had to struggle to believe that there is evil. A friend of mine who was a military paramedic described landing in a hot zone and feeling that evil was a giant invisible spirit moving through the land there. It was the first time I thought about evil as a spirit that takes over a place or a being's spirit/mind/consciousness. It is easy to label the perpetrators of the Holocaust, Darfur, the Srebenicia massacre, etc...., as evil, but how does evil take over on such a wide scale, resulting in these obscenities and genocide in Rwanda, the making of child soldiers in Mozambique, Sierre Leone, Liberia, the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge, Pol Pot, the Armenian Genocide?....

    Someone posted that LOVE will cure evil, but I think EVIL IS A CHOICE. So, try very hard not to channel evil. I try not to think destructive thoughts towards anyone~~which ain't always easy! But to invite evil in, and allow it to gain any ground/control is as self-destructive as it is detrimental towards whatever or whomever it is directed.

  • KYRANI Apr 28, 2012

    @ dustproduction,
    you are right and furthermore there does not need to be any background of evil for good to exist as some seem to suggest. The opposites that may appear, depending on mental information, ideas are firstly, good and bad (ie not good actions) as also as you say good and the absence of a good. Evil is not a natural part of existence but a fabrication that comes into being when two or more are gathered together to form a mndset of harmful ideas with the volition to do harm, ie the evil spirit exists when there is an evil mindset.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dustproduction Apr 27, 2012

    Re: Good implies evil, and evil implies good?

    Why? There can be a good and the absence of a good, no?

  • parker Apr 15, 2012

    KYRANI:

    I apologize for offending you with my choice of wording. And I forgive you for re-expressing my intentions. In fairness to the topic of the thread, and to its originator, EthanT, I withdraw from sharing any further comments with you.

    @ EthanT:
    I will accept your claim that an “awakened one” in Buddhism, is a person who CAN see "The kingdom of heaven that is spread out upon the Earth,", and I accept that you believe that he physically walks within the world, but can mentally “see” beyond all pairs of opposites and is no longer bound by them. He therefore has no attachments to life, and no suffering, as a result.

    If he does not experience any internal personal suffering while in this world, then he must also have blinded himself to the suffering of others. The suffering of others may not be his personal obligation, yet if he truly knows well how to avoid it, then he should above all else, desire to share that knowledge with those others, lest he be found to be the most selfish and pitiable of all.

    The evil intentions of men that cause unfair distributions and tribulation of all sorts, are not found directly expressed by everyone, yet everyone holds the potential to think and to act in these evil ways. "Evil" is not a special gift, reserved for a special elite. Likewise "good" is not a special gift either. The free will to engage and apply ourselves to either good or evil endeavors, is the gift.

    We can choose to abuse the gift, or to honor it. But to choose to ignore it, is just as evil as abusing it. How are we to do good and to share and to Love one another, if we callous ourselves to enable us to ignore the sufferings of others. So long as there are others suffering, I will also suffer to help them and to share knowledge with them, as the very least I can do. And if their continuing suffering does not pain me, then i am a self-defined failure.

  • KYRANI Apr 15, 2012

    Of the many times I have been attacked there was one time where they had created conditions by suggestion that I did not fully appreciate at the time even though I saw it, that would have, if they could have used it, create a catastrophic, fatal stroke. But in the end.. when they “turned up the heat” so to speak and claimed “this is it” (they were threatening to blow my head off and probably the whole house) my reaction was not intense fear as they had hoped. It was not even fear. I started worrying “if I die who’s going to do the work that I am here to do?” Worry returns the body to rest. So the massive blood build up in my brain could not be used! I walked away with a potentially fatal condition.. home free. Yes I do believe that it is God’s Grace. So too with the masses, the good people of this world, there is an awakening, it is already happening. They will rise up and they will fight and win AGAINST the evil. Amen.

    Ironically enough you see but you don’t see. You said to EthanT
    This spiritual enlightenment is not restricted to a special few, it is freely available to all who are willing to accept it, and ask.
    Read it man.. “all who are willing to accept it and ask”.. not all as in all we are all one and we got to get it together all together. This is not the case. There is no reconcile good and evil. That is a myth.. a lie perpetrated on the good people of this world by those that stand to gain power and influence while keeping the masses docile.

  • KYRANI Apr 15, 2012

    3. You say “Our free will enables us to reject their way of thinking, and enables us to join together in opposition of evil things or actions they may choose to do, or attempt.” What pipe you’re smoking? The world has been brought to its knees quite literally and not because people have a Free Will and have allow it or have created it. That is garbage. People have been deceived and their Free Will denied them as a result precisely because we have been lead to believe they are we are one. We are not one. This is all illusory nature anyway. But God call those that God Wills into His Presence.. The Presence of God. We have no real free will outside of living in a harmonious, free society and thus being able to express our individuality and reach our full potential. Take peace and freedom away and there is no free will. The Jews in the gas chambers had Free Will that you are claiming? NO! You might be one of those (I should hope not) that says “the Nazis gassed them because the Jews wanted to be gassed owing to an exercise of their Free Will”. I think that is just an excuse for racism.

    4. The rhetoric that says "we are all one, we are all one" is the rhetoric of the evil people, the evil networks. The Devil.. The ANTICHRIST. They have used this rhetoric to install themselves in every area of life. You see preachers (I was watch one such guy on YouTube recently posing as a Buddha, and if you listen carefully to what he was saying you suddenly see that he had horns larger than the large candles he had on the altar behind him), they appear as political leaders, they appear as social workers etc etc etc Collectively these people are the Antichrist. You really want to embrace them? Do you think that you are going to change it, that being the collective by embracing these guys and saying hey let’s talk, we love you and all that stuff. They don’t respond to that. Yeah they’ll talk alright but only to gain information to use against you. They’ll seemingly accept love but only to form a closer relationship, which is a more advantageous position to do more harm. I have seen this over and over again ad nauseam. These people are supported by the false prophets.. hmmm should we not call them ‘the false profits’. These are the medical industry, who are eating with nine sets of jaws, as we say in Greek. They aid and abet the antichrist to do evil in order to profit. Where the hell do you see the “we” in all of this. While ever we continue to follow this “we are all one”, and “that is the way we will change it” then we, the good people are suffering more and more. The Nazis had to be fought to be stopped. All aggressors and evil regimes have to be opposed and often fought to be stopped. True, the evil cannot win in the end. You can make people suffer just so much and then there is a new attitude. In my own experience, they have reduced my personal life to rubble, but that is not helping them. Quite the opposite in fact! Let me give you an example.

  • KYRANI Apr 15, 2012


    @parker You are missing some very important points.
    1. This is God's creation and not some independent realm that we are in as independent beings, who have what you're calling Free Will. This creation is for God's play, God's Lila as is said in Hinduism. God wants responsive beings for His play and nothing else. If as a created being, beings created of illusory nature threaded as a precious bead threaded on the Divine thread, you seek to cultivate the connection, ie you choose to be in a love relationship with The Beloved, then you awaken in The Reality.. His Reality.. before Him. If you are asleep then there are infinite number of life times to wake up or be awakened. If however you choose to hate the Divine and seek to join together with others who are likewise haters of the Divine and mob others around you and hurt them and cause them unrest so that they are unable to connect with the Divine which is their right, then you are trash.. GARBAGE. Then the Divine Spark is taken back and the illusory nature which is garbage is trashed. This is not my opinion. Just read the holy texts and no matter how much corruption there is in holy books (of which evil people.. ‘they’ have failed to corrupt the most basic theological aspects), you will still find that this is upheld in them all.

    2. There is a war between good and evil. This is depicted in the Bhagavad Gita, in the Holy Koran, in the Holy Bible and in fact all holy texts. In the Gita (as also in the others) Krishna instructs Adjuna to take up his sword, to fight and kill because the other side is already dead. And they are dead. Whoever rejects God is blind or asleep. But those that stand against God, who are haters of God are Dead.. they are the Walking Dead. Killing them is no killing! is the message of all holy texts. In the Revelations of the NT you will find a similar narrative. And in all holy texts the good go to heaven, ie are awakened and reach God's Presence.. awaken in The Presence (you can call this His Presence or Her Presence.. same thing). And the evil go to hell.. ie eternal night, eternal darkness and eternal fire, which means they are left in their rage for an eternity, alone. They are trashed! God can choose to make the illusion vanish because it is just illusion but He chooses to throw them in Hell instead. If you want to call ‘we’ you risk going with them to Hell.

  • parker Apr 14, 2012

    KYRANI:
    You are certainly entitled to an pinion, but I had hoped I was also entitled to mine.

    Quoting the "we" does not make anyone, let alone everyone responsible for evil. And in regard to collective change, the royal "we" is essential, unless you are capable of changing all of the evil among us.

    If people have chosen to be evil, whether willingly or by force, they must be included in the whole of society, because they are part of it. You do not have any unilateral right or even collective authority to expel these people, evil or otherwise.

    You say, "They cannot be considered not even for a moment." The rest of us cannot simply deny their existence, it must be accepted and considered, if we wish to change it, because it is. Our free will enables us to reject their way of thinking, and enables us to join together in opposition of evil things or actions they may choose to do, or attempt.

    These evil people that you claim live and breathe hate, do not have any power to disable anyone else as you claim, and they certainly do not deny every good person the ability to reach into the inner being and find rest. We need to embrace them and help them overcome their evil temptations, not "exterminate" them as you suggest.

    You criticize me for referencing "we", yet you clearly suggest "we" should hold your opinion of what good and evil are, and "we" - if "we" are ONLY the good people, should band together so that "we" can expose evil, stand against it and fight if need be, so the evil will be exterminated.

    @ EthanT:
    I agree generally with what you put forth in your opening thoughts and in answer to what I perceived were your questions, I still feel that our free will is one of our biggest obstacles to reconciling good and evil. We could not exercise our free will, if we did not have the innate ability to distinguish between more or less, better or worse, to have or to suffer without, etc. Seeing that it is not considered wrong to want more, to be of better health, to enjoy abundance, it only becomes wrong, once and if some of us (formerly we) allow for greed, avarice and selfishness to allow some of us to want these things that are right, to that extent some of us deprive them from others, which is then wrong.

    Thus the it behooves us to learn how to reconcile good with evil - to learn to "see" or be conscious of the “perfect knowledge” of the kingdom of heaven that is indeed spread out before us. And once any of us have learned these things, to then do the good work of sharing, so that all may become an “awakened one”. This spiritual enlightenment is not restricted to a special few, it is freely available to all who are willing to accept it, and ask.

  • KYRANI Apr 14, 2012

    @ parker
    you are now quoting the "we" and thus making everybody responsible for evil. And worse when you quote this royal "we" you prohibit change. The evil people have chosen to be evil, even though some of them have been forced. They could still have chosen death to being evil. When you include the whole of society, you include the evil people and that means their agenda goes on the table. They cannot be considered not even for a moment. These people live and breathe hate and their agenda is to deny every good person the ability to reach into the inner being and find rest. ONLY when good people band together and expose evil, stand against it and fight if need be will the evil be exterminated. There is no "we" want more. Every person has some selfishness, it is the very nature of ego but that does NOT make them evil. You don't seem to understand what evil is about. There is good and bad but they are just part of the pairs of opposites, when we elect to see something as good we necessarily then bring into being the idea of bad. Evil is a whole different matter altogether.

  • parker Apr 13, 2012

    The perceptions of good and evil are an inherent aspect of our Free Will. Free will denotes an ability to choose and to justify our choices by our own reasoning, as opposed to accepting a pre-determined outcome, such as is done by animals of instinct.

    There is not a contest between good and evil per se, rather the contest is between the good and evil we choose to express from within ourselves. Like hot or cold, good and evil are subjective terms of scale. We are free to choose to express our selves as evil or as good.

    Right and wrong do not always denote good or evil, since even little children inherently know the difference between what is right and what is wrong, yet they grow up learning to exercise what is wrong, thus becoming evil by choice, while still knowing what is right.

    Our inherent free will also enables many other characteristics and is contingent upon them. For example, we could not exercise free will, if we did not have the innate ability to distinguish between more or less, better or worse, to have or to suffer without, etc. Seeing that it is not considered wrong to want more, to be of better health, to enjoy abundance, it becomes wrong, once we allow for greed, avarice and selfishness to allow us to want these things that are right, to that extent we deprive them from others, which is wrong.

    Thus the contingent characteristics of our own free will are the prime contributors for the evil we see around us. "We" want more. Until we defeat the selfish thoughts within us as individuals, we will have a world of communities dominated by evil.

  • KYRANI Apr 13, 2012

    @alphadrexl
    you obviously haven't read the thread because this has been discussed at length. Evil is created and people are made evil.. deliberately by other evil people. No constant emotional stress numbing the emotion will do any such thing. There are evil people who have an agenda and primary on that agenda is to recruit. Recruitment takes place early on, in early childhood but before a child can be recruited there have to be preconditions that will predispose it to rage and hate. These too are created and unfortunately at present, there is ignorance in the world amongst most people about what is involved. Go to my blog under toxic people and read there.
    http://kyrani99.wordpress.com/2012/01/21/the-toxic-people-and-their-networks-who-are-they/
    you will find there is toxic people parts 1 and 2

  • Anonymous Icon

    alphadrexl Apr 12, 2012

    In my understanding.....it seems evil is spawned only when the good let it so. While others are inherently malignant, others are driven to sadism and other forms of sinister behaviour. I've only read the first post so forgive me if I'm repeating any others, but various other studies have touched upon the subject before. The abuse of given power for example, thrust upon those without proper knowledge of its usage. The accounts of cruel despots alone are too many. Whom are amongst the most regarded evil men in history? Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, all men with power that have committed devious and treacherous acts through their will and power. One might say that power itself just corrupts, but something before their power was placed or attained by them. Most likely, as it is usually the case, that they experienced a occasion that was unjust during their youth. This is the real source of true evil. Or what we perceive of as evil, as there is no true good or bad, but that's a topic for another day. The constant abuse and neglect is what might make one who is utterly good to conduct evil behaviour. Abuse a dog, and it becomes more aggressive, as well as increasing its over all hostility. Same as with humans, lets say you have a wife. She cheats on you, so you get a new one. The same as before happens, and so on. The constant emotional stress and hardship would lead to a sort of numbness of emotions, blurring their lines of good or evil. The process could be different and still achieve the same negative results. People make other people evil. So therefore, all people are guilty of evil, for causing it, and refusing to prevent it.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Rajneesh Jan 16, 2012

    Several if not most forces are Good. There is one really evil force. Creation and the story of Good and evil go hand-in-hand and follow this pattern:
    1: There is a Creator
    2: At one time all was at peace
    3: A traitorous being(s) caused discord
    4: The Creator and Creation were injured by this traitor(s)
    5: As a result of the injury the Creator lives apart from His Creation
    6: One day life and the Creator will reunite and evil will be vanquished
    Note that while the Creator has great power the power has rules and constraints. In addition, it was the Creator's nature to make things that last forever. Thus removing the traitorous being from existence is a difficult slow process and unprecedented in all times before.

    Things that support my claim are Scientific, Philosophical, Emotional. Emotional being most convincing to me. Scientifically the notion that matter can not be created or destroyed it just changes form is widely accepted. This means -- the fundamental stuff of the universe -- never gets old in the terms we perceive. While there are theoretical calculations for how long it will take a proton to degrade, or light to get 'tired', they are not provable and insanely long periods of time that are purely hypothetical.

    The Big Bang does exist and it was a cataclysmic event. I believe it is the start date for when the Creator and Creation suffered injury.

    Philosophically the fall of Heaven in the Bible and other creation myths including the Hindu myth in which Brahma (The Creator) is injured by Shiva. In the tale Shiva cuts off Brahma's 5th and supreme head leaving Brahma unable to control creation as he used to. The Bible tale speaks of satan taking one third of God's fleet and descending into hell. There are several other myths which relate treachery and creation.

    Emotionally, I have had dreams detailing the events in several ways. My dreams relate that time moves in one direction in this universe, so the Creator can eliminate evil in a linear fashion; thus preventing the traitors malfeasance from spreading across larger (nonlinear) domains of time.
    In addition the light itself is damaged though being repaired. One artifact of this damage is visible in the Solar Spectrum. For reasons still unknown to science, there are blockages in the color spectrum. If you Google "Solar Spectrum" pictures of the spectrum show up and the black lines are visible.
    It has also been related that the Corona is actually a Barrier designed to keep the instances of the evil being on the inside while the Creator eliminates it. It is the elimination of this evil being that makes it easier for things that results in life being kinder for humans. It also correlates that in the distant past earth was a much harsher place.

  • KYRANI Nov 26, 2011

    arielburns surrendering is not an option. It is better to die than to surrender to evil. But when you understand your power as a non-evil person you will realize that you can stand against them no matter how many they are and no matter how threatening they are. I am up against a multitude both locally and overseas and they are trying to adversely influence me 24/7 but I have found that the power lies in the inner realm in the mind and I know that I can and will beat them. It is just a matter of time. You have to stand your ground and look within and find your true self.

  • arielburns Nov 21, 2011

    The evil people have and are waging a very vicious, very dirty war against me and my personal life has been reduced to rubble but my resolve to continue fighting for justice has only got stronger. And my love for God is unwavering as a candle flame in a windless place.. steadfast.>>

    KYRANI, I became so emblazoned with passion I could not read the entire thread. I, too have had this experience. In fact, I watched my life shred before me in 3 short months I was reduced to nothing. And I mean in all aspects, and at the time I was very much an atheist - or at least in discord with the harmonies I was experiencing. I have now come to understand that there are forces of evil, indeed. I have spent most of the last year trying to unravel these mysteries that previously held no weight at all. I have entered all dimensional aspects and realities to reference my query. My dream states have been greatly altered including astral travel with hypnogogic experiences that eventually diminished in what I think was an effort to unfold my being before the creative energies. I had to surrender. And still, there is a sense of being attacked for the light I contain, the unbridled love that I hold on to. There may be some profound movements within the consciousness of humanity, which very well may be at the brink of a new age due to the climbing population and ability of the Earth to sustain that. These things that have produced many great works in accord to the reality of good and evil, they were written by people like us, who had such a dreadful collapse that there was no going forward without this reconciliation. This is a very real experience! Love to you, I am definitely feeling your pain.

    Namaste

    ../.riel

  • KYRANI Nov 19, 2011

    Here I can give you a personal account. At the very point where I was to start the formal work I am doing to fight against injustice and to expose the workings of evil to the humane people in the world. I had a spiritual experience. This experience happened in the span of time that it took for me to take one step and I was walking at a normal pace, but it seemed timeless. I was aware that the experience was on “another plane” and not in my physical environment. I was in a sense “transported” to another dimension /another place. I was in a space which was endless all around me and there was no ground beneath my feet, just a fathomless expanse and nothing above me too. All around me were huge columns of fire that extended endlessly above and below me. They spat out long protrusions from time to time aiming to strike me but none could reach me. In my mind I heard a voice say to me “you may be required to be in hell for an indefinite period of time” and in the instant that the voice finished speaking I echoed back with “even for an indefinite period of time I still love God.” And as soon as I said the words the whole experience vanished from mind and I realized I had just set my foot down on the floor.. I had taken the step. My reply was instant and I was astounded myself. But who made the reply and who was astounded? The “myself” that was astounded was the lower self, Kyrani. But the self that gave the reply was the higher self, in union with God. And I could see that may that was why some months prior to this experience I had had an enlightenment experience which lasted many days; Possibly that happened in preparation for me to begin this journey. Sometimes it almost feels as if there is a script somewhere. And yet I still see that choice is available!
    The choice to become good or evil is available before the person gains enlightenment or becomes evil. This is different from the freedom to make choices as to what to do in life and on my journey. There have certainly been occasions where I still had choice whether to go on and complete the task or not and it would not put me out of favor with God. However as for becoming evil I can say without doubt that it is not possible. The evil people have and are waging a very vicious, very dirty war against me and my personal life has been reduced to rubble but my resolve to continue fighting for justice has only got stronger. And my love for God is unwavering as a candle flame in a windless place.. steadfast.

  • KYRANI Nov 19, 2011

    ..now to address your questions. From what I have seen and from my own experience I believe that a good person can’t be made evil and an evil person can’t be made good again because they have chosen to go down these paths, but I do have some question marks.
    I have seen a few cases where a child and adolescent, which have appeared to be good (but I don’t know that they are good because I have not known them personally –they may have had tendencies that could be exploited and I didn’t see that), I have observed have been made evil. It is true that I have seen cases too where people are born evil and maybe evil souls so are evil before they manifest, ie before conception even because of past lives of evil. However I believe most people are not born evil, they are made evil through a recruitment and aggressive training regime by the evil sub-culture. I have also seen that a child cannot be arbitrarily selected to be made evil. The child has to have suffered from neglect, mental distance in the main to have developed tendencies that can be exploited but here again it doesn’t work with every child. With the same neglect some children will not develop the tendencies that can be exploited by evil. The children that are neglected and that develop the tendencies are not, from what I can see evil to begin with. So why the difference between children? I don’t completely understand this as yet. Do some of them have a legacy from past lives?
    Those that are evil cannot, again from my observations, become good. In becoming evil I strongly suspect a choice is made by the individual. Once that choice is made they are no longer an individual. They belong to the evil sub-culture and the common evil mindset. In a sense they forfeit their free will and the ability to choose from there on in. This is I guess what is meant by the common term “selling their soul to the devil”. Once you forfeit your choice and cross the abyss there is no way back. The tragedy is, for those children that have chosen to go down the evil path, that the choice can be made very early in life. I can see two children that maybe as young as six and seven that are full blown evil, not fully trained but I strongly suspect are already not redeemable.
    On the other hand there are individuals that have chosen to go down the path of Righteousness and become enlightened. Again they have cross over some boundary (passed through the gateless gate / gained stream entry.. etc.) so that a choice to become evil is no longer viable.

  • KYRANI Nov 19, 2011

    @ Saiurse these are good questions that you raise and I would like to discuss them further.
    First let me quality that a good person is not a sinless person or even a person that doesn’t do things from selfish motives at least some of the time. A good person can even become bad (including commit murder) but they are redeemable. So what makes them good? One way to define a good person is to say they are not toxic/ evil, which means they do not live by causing harm in others around them and from the other person’s suffering derive pleasure. Possibly a better way is to qualify the differences and thus give a definition. The difference between good and evil is that good people feel empathy (and even when they have gone bad they can still face what they have done and in doing so feel empathy again as to be remorseful and seek forgiveness and make recompense for what they have done willingly and through a need to be redeemed/ ie., to re-connect with the community of good others again. Police sometimes see this in the criminal who may initially resists but who wants to confess his /her crime to “get it off his/her chest”). An evil person on the other hand not only feels no empathy they display total apathy. That is to say the good person is connected to others in a spiritual/mental sense and feels a need to be connected whereas the evil person has become /is disconnected and desires to stay disconnected. Indeed resists being connected spiritually/mentally with the community of good others. They belong to the community of evil, even to the extent that they share a common evil mindset in total obedience. All of their choices, from the time that they choose to be evil, are made in the strictest obedience to the mindset of evil.. “the evil spirit” as the evil people call it or we could call it “the evil mind”.

  • Saoirse Nov 18, 2011

    Kyrani, I wanted to go back to something you said earlier -- that you don't believe that someone who is good can be made evil. And what you've said about mistreated individuals probably having been evil to begin with and not worth compassion implies that you believe the opposite as well -- that those who are evil cannot be made good. Where, then, does choice you mention enter the equation? How could we choose either way if it's not possible to change?

  • KYRANI Nov 18, 2011

    @ dfgdrgww
    What you are describing, as you stated in the beginning of your post, is good and bad, But then at the end of your post you changed it to good and evil. Separation from God leads to bad actions but there are people who are separate but not evil. A person can be separate out of ignorance or because they feel they have insufficient information.Evil goes a long way further because it does not arise out of misunderstanding or ignorance. They know that God exists (and I have found that is true whether or not they call themselves atheists or theist and even be regular church goers). These people choose separation because they are haters of God and Righteousness/ Justice. Furthermore they are not simply potentially harmful they are actively and wilfully harmful and in full knowledge that what they do are gross violations. And even more than that they get pleasure out of the harm that they do every day of their lives. There is a great need for society to expose these people and to inform people what they can do to stay safe.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dfgdrgww Nov 17, 2011

    When one is living in enlightenment he is led by his internal connection to god in such a way that with his actions he:

    1) preserves this connection to god and this state of oneness that he has achieved
    2) shows the way to enlightenment to everything and everybody in the world (and clear obstacles on the way if necessary)

    The closeness to the whole, to god can be considered as "good". Then "evil" is the separation - living and acting without internal feeling and understanding of the world and what it represents. Living without regular progress to and achievement of some state of connection with the whole (which state when regularly achieved and experienced, even not to its highest point, remove some (or all) karma - bad and good things done in life).

    To conclude, the above understanding of the "Good Vs Evil" dilemma seems right to me because all other definitions of good and evil are to some degree relative (one action can be considered good by one person and evil by another because of their different points of view).

  • Anonymous Icon

    dfgdrgww Nov 17, 2011

    Another idea I have come across in Indian scriptures about good and bad goes like that:

    When you achieve a state of connection with God (oneness), then whatever you do is good. The souls of those people, animals, objects that you interact with and by some way are harmed (in our normal understanding - you have done bad thing to them) in fact benefit from that because they get reincarnated in human bodies without waiting the millions other reincarnations that a soul must experience first (and in this way that soul gets chance right away to achieve personal liberation - which is the ultimate goal).

    What is your duty? Lord Arjuna explains it perfectly in the last chapter of the Gita (Bhagavad Gita - The Song of God):

    "When he casts from him
    Vanity, violence,
    Pride, lust, anger
    And all his possessions,
    Totally free
    From the sense of ego
    And tranquil of heart:
    That man is ready
    For oneness with Brahman.
    And he who dwells
    United with Brahman,
    Calm in mind,
    Not grieving, not craving,
    Regarding all men
    With equal acceptance:
    He loves me most dearly.

    I can see "the good" as a state of mind, achieved connection, action done while being/living enlightened - this is good. In this state all polarities are dissolved by god, burned away.

  • KYRANI Nov 17, 2011

    I also ask about the "poor kid that was maltreated in infancy/childhood" and I have seen it done. I do not believe there are genetic tendencies to being evil but there may be tendencies /"patterns of consciousness" that are able to reincarnate. As far as I am concerned I have to admit "the jury is still out". I have seen a great deal that have been made evil, but did they have tendencies that were being exploited? I find it hard to believe that someone who is good can be made evil. There again it looks unfortunate for the person who is maltreated but we are looking at it from within creation and we don't know enough to make a clear judgment. I have had evil people say to me “what about if you wake up one day and you just find that you are like that (ie evil)? The problem is that if you get drawn into feeling sorry for them/ having empathy, they are quick to exploit the connection to try and hurt you. And I have also seen that the comment was really made to betray. Furthermore I have seen them make what sounds like a good comment or remark, suggestion etc., and when the other person accepts it they come up with what they call "a negative side", which means they make the remark in such a way as to be able to say that it has a positive side and a negative side (2 meanings to the words). This is garbage. Words don't have meaning, we use words to express meaning. So I have arrived at a place where I trust NOTHING of what they say and do. All of them are rotten to the core. It might be a shame for the poor kid who… but by the time you see them they are not worth considering even for a nanosecond!

  • KYRANI Nov 17, 2011

    Firstly I want to say that I agree with most of your comments. I don't agree however with frequencytuner's comments of good and evil being two poles of the "same thing". In most of your comments we could say that evil can be described as things that are very bad and hateful and that politics comes into it in what is acceptable by the state and if we look further we find that it is within religions, one fighting the other and within the bureaucracy etc., and I absolutely agree with all of that. What I am trying to explain however is that there is an under class of people who privately describe themselves as evil and who are not only capable of doing extremely evil acts but indeed do so to millions of unsuspecting people every day of their lives.
    to answer EthanT..
    I can only describe things as I have experienced and I believe the matter is as follows. There is a core of Being that gives us life. That core is God, however build onto to that is the created form and that includes the personal self/personal mind and the body. The body is essentially only a vessel and that is discarded in death. For the personal aspect to go on to become a part of the "Blissful Eternity" or whatever we going to call the after life, that personal self & soul aspect has to be in accord with God. Thus in a sense the individual goes on to live in "the mind of God" through becoming connected or one with God, the innermost core of Being. I remember past lives but they are not “my past lives” as in belonging to me in this life. They are all like threads on a string. We are free to choose to be separate from God. If separate that individual will have essentially chosen eternal darkness and the "inner conditions" which in evil people is rage. In one sense everything is of God but there is the choice as to what path to choose. If we choose the Godly path then we relinquish ego/personal self in obtaining Union. If we choose to live out an ego-centric life and especially an evil life then we have chosen separation. The core of Being returns to the undifferentiated state in death but the "pattern of consciousness" or collection of ideas that was the personal self is left in darkness. The Persian ideal, as with many other ideals in earlier times did not take into account of an under class of people simply because they were few and far between. In today’s world they possibly constitute around 10% of the population maybe more.

  • Saoirse Nov 16, 2011

    Ethan, I haven't read Crime and Punishment, but I went and read the analysis you linked to. It's interesting that the main character takes the approach that the ends justify the means, and yet, at the end he has to come around to the need for atonement. Nietzsche takes the approach that individuals should be above moral codes imposed by society, but at the same time he warns of the dangers of succumbing to one's darker nature. So I think he ultimately had a strong moral code himself -- he just didn't believe in letting society force one on you.

    The thou vs. it approach defintely seems to be in the nature of humans. I see it all the time on a species level. If someone isn't human, they're an "it" and usually considered fair game for abusing or even killing. Humans like to think of themselves as special and enlightened, But an enlightened being wouldn't abuse or kill other beings, so people need to devalue the lives of others, in order that they may continue to see themselves as special and enlightened without incurring the inconvenience of having to be compassionate. It makes total psychological sense, but it's frustrating in the real world if you're the person trying to convince the wildlife department to enforce the laws protecting unpopular species!

  • Gretchen Dreisbach Nov 14, 2011

    Doesn't the concept of evil/hate come from the illusion of separation born out of polarity consciousness?
    Isn't that which is deemed 'evil' basically a coagulation of dense, negative thoughtforms which can be transmuted with LOVE?
    When lower vibrations are held in the field of higher vibrations they dissipate....The vibrations of the New Earth WILL be more about blending
    I believe, (after all of these illusions are cracked wide open)...(and sent back to Universe)..what would happen if we practiced discernment instead of judgment I wonder?

  • Anonymous Icon

    EthanT Nov 14, 2011

    Saorise,

    Have you ever read Crime and Punishment by Dostoyevsky. It has a similar theme along the lines, as you mention. In the interest of me not writing another long-winded post, I'll just do a quick quote/link from wikipedia, which seems to do a decent job talking about.

    "Several times throughout the novel, Raskolnikov justifies his actions by connecting himself mentally with Napoleon Bonaparte, believing that murder is permissible in pursuit of a higher purpose."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_and_punishment

  • Anonymous Icon

    EthanT Nov 14, 2011

    Hi Kyrani,

    I agree with much of what you said. Including this:

    “However from what I have seen evil people are made. It is a real tragedy for the people involved because they are maltreated in infancy and childhood through neglect and mainly mental/spiritual neglect not physical neglect and they are then enraged over time as to develop a character that can be exploited."

    Maltreatment is definitely a problem too, and something that, in my mind, also makes the whole topic and where the lines should be drawn a bit “fuzzy”.

    But, this makes me wonder how can an evil person, as you define it, be “unredeemable”. Some poor kid who was maltreated from infancy by his parents, and stood very little chance at a normal life, becomes evil and is now unredeemable?

    Would God allow this?

    If everything came from God, does not everything eventually have to go back to God, as well?

    Unredeemable, seems to imply an eternal separation from God? If God is All, how can anything be truly separate from Him, ever?

    Of course, the Bible “end days” do seem to depict something along these lines, when taken on the surface, or literally.

    There is a Persian idea that in “the end times” all would walk through a cleansing fire. Those who did the most good would feel nothing. Those who did the most bad would suffer horribly in the fire. But, all would be cleansed, or “redeemed”

  • Anonymous Icon

    EthanT Nov 14, 2011

    I think you be on to something here Saorise, although forgive me if I take your thought too far, lol.

    “Evil seems to be a matter of democracy. It's okay to kill whoever the majority of the people don't like at any given time.”

    I think this will tie into the next point I wanted to make about evil, and it will also relate to the idea of evil being a “lack of consciousness.

    Ever notice some strange things back in the Pentateuch , the first five books o the Bible, or the story of Moses?

    I am thinking of how on one page you hear things like, “Thou shall not kill”. Then you turn a few pages and hear something like, “Go over into the land of the Canaanites and kill every man and living thing?

    So, what is going there?

    It’s what Joseph Campbell called the “Thou” vs “It” perspectives. Or, it’s what psychology has called the “tribal ego” vs the “modern-day ego” (Carl Jung, IIRC)

    When you’re in your tribe – or blood line – the commandments apply and people are viewed as “Thou’s”. Empathy, and a feeling of connection, exists.

    Outside the tribe, people are viewed as “Its”. The commandments do not apply and empathy probably does not either. (There is a definite lack of the feeling of Oneness with the Canaanites!)

    This is not just concept! It is an actual state of consciousness! This is why I never agreed when folks say people were the same way 5000 years ago, as they are now, just “dumber”. Consciousness evolves and its evolution can be seen and studied within comparative mythology.

    This is the meaning behind the following sayings of Jesus.
    Luke 14:25
    “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”

    Matthew 12:50
    “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

    The idea is to break away from the blood lines, the biases and prejudices. Once we do, we will realize all is One, or we are all “brothers”. All these “physical” ties we seem to have like culture, religion, and right down to family relationships, are all transient, and all an illusion to some extent. We are all One. Realizing this, is still a challenge we face even in the world today.

    So, we have an evolution of consciousness going from the New Testament to the Old Testament (also paralleled in the East, and all over the world!) and a change in the manifestation of evil, as a result.

  • frequencytuner Nov 13, 2011

    Good and Evil are poles of the same thing, like 2 branches on a tree. One must say "up" so the other can mean "down" and vice versa. They exist to complement each other. Our entire universe exists somewhere in the grey area between them. Without life there can be no death and without death there can be no life. It is all by means to create contrast and allow the possibility of "perception". No one is better or worse than the other because they are both necessary to sustain balance. One creates the other by it's very nature and inception. It is hard to see because we believe one side is good and one is bad. This is untrue.

    Would you consider these to be synonymous: Negative, Evil, Darkness, Death, Chaos, Pain, Fear, Wrong, Cold etc... vs: Positive, Good, Light, Life, Order, Joy, Love, Right, Hot etc...OR sum it up in 2 words: Polarity and Perception. Heaven is the marriage of "Good and Evil", "Yin with Yang". Then perception will be clear.

  • Saoirse Nov 13, 2011

    The problem with trying to define it is that people will always find justification for their actions. The mosquitoes, for example: from my POV, it's wrong to kill them, especially just for the sake of convenience, and it's not something I would do. But most people -- even those who claim to be operating from the standpoint of compassionate beings will disagree with me, and will find some excuse -- mosquitoes aren't as important as we are; we have souls and they don't; they carry diseases... there are endless ways to justify killing them, just like there are endless ways to justify killing other humans. The people who favor capital punishment don't think about the fact that they're making the exact same value judgment as the man they're putting to death. They've decided, based on their own criteria, that that individual deserves to die, so they kill him. In their own minds, they're sure that their justification is better than his was -- that they're more qualified to judge who should live and who should die than he is, but are they? Evil seems to be a matter of democracy. It's okay to kill whoever the majority of the people don't like at any given time. What's considered evil is violence perpetuated outside of the will of the majority. I don't happen to think that's a great criterion, but it seems to be the way humans do things.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Chris1957 Nov 13, 2011

    I've come to think the thing we call evil has a lot to do with how we use our ability to choose and what our intent behind the choices are. Further, I tend to think that those who are thought of as evil people are those who are often only self serving, wanting to take from others to serve their single identity as an individual where as, those who are the opposite of evil tend to desire to serve others. The idea of evil, to me, is something like a black hole whose gravity takes all it call from all, where as good is like a sun which radiates outward, giving to all. These, of course, are just frameworks of thoughts, I don't think black holes are evil any more than suns are the opposite.

  • KYRANI Nov 13, 2011

    @EthanT
    Consciousness is a portion of awareness as “lent” to the ephemeral being of personal self. And I suspect that the collective unconscious that Jung talked about is really the pure awareness. To exhibit (true) evil with full consciousness is really only pertaining to the personal self. Evil people have forfeited the state of bliss that good people are capable of experiencing, even if only for a glimpse now and then. In that state of bliss one sees no self and other, all is one. The evil person has no concept of how can you hurt other when that other is you. They have true broken symmetry. You are right full consciousness is not about Nirvana or the Kingdom of Heaven etc., because full or otherwise consciousness is only a fragment.
    There are people, who have reached a very high level and do come to the world and act unflinchingly out of selflessness. I don’t know if there are people born evil owing to past lives of evil. There may be. However from what I have seen evil people are made. It is a real tragedy for the people involved because they are maltreated in infancy and childhood through neglect and mainly mental/spiritual neglect not physical neglect and they are then enraged over time as to develop a character that can be exploited. They are then recruited and thoroughly trained. So really they are to be pitied, but I cannot afford to pity them. This is an angle that evil people have tried again and again to create some weakness in me. To feel sorry for them means empathy and that means connection and they then want to use this to destroy me. I am a warrior in a war against evil. I cannot afford to hold any weaknesses. The way I consider it is simple. If you take an apple out of the basket that look fabulous but as soon as you cut it open you find it is rotten to the core all you can really do is ditch it and look in the basket for another. Once the person is rotted there is no room for pity. But the fight against evil is to help prevent others from being taken in this way. Exposure is the destruction of evil. When people realize the truth and know how to stand strong against evil so that the evil people can no long do harm then they perish. This is worth fighting for before it comes down to a conventional war. A conventional war (World War 3) would mean a civil war taking place in every nation on earth while the nations are also at war with one another in cross border conflicts. And with the evil people networked world wide they are capable of creating scenarios that look like conflict but which are trickery pitting good against good with the view to destroy the good people. Yes good would still win but at a huge cost.
    I would also like to say I appreciate your posts too -very much thank you for your thoughts and sharing your worthy inquiry.

  • KYRANI Nov 13, 2011

    @EthanT
    Serial killers are evil. I don’t go along with the idea that they have brain damage and that’s why they become serial killers. I know the medicos claim this but there are plenty of people that have brain damage and they don’t become serial killers. As for mental illness, from what I’ve seen I strongly believe that maltreatment of an individual is behind it. Some I think use mental illness as a way of avoiding a jail sentence, but there are some that maybe are themselves victims.. maybe. If there is a grey area then I would say this is it. If a person’s ethical standards can be sufficiently corrupted it seems it is possible for evil people to then manipulate that person, but I am not 100% sure about this. There have also been serial killers that have maintained a double life as to live one life that looks flawlessly decent, enough that their wife and children etc are shocked to find them arrested one day as a serial killer.
    Steiner lived in 1861 to 1925 and not long after his death Hitler and the Nazis arose, serious evil people; serial killers at a state level, as also Pol Pot and others. However as evil as they all were they are not a patch on today’s evil networks. The damage these people do is counted in the many hundred’s of millions and they know no borders.
    You ask the questions, how can anyone, or anything, REALLY exhibit “true evil” with FULL consciousness? How can you hurt the other, when the other is YOU. How can you hurt the other when the operating in a field where “subject and object” are no longer meaningful concepts?
    The question we really need to ask first is what is consciousness? Modern medicine talks about consciousness, sub-consciousness and unconsciousness and at the same time recognizes that we are aware that we are conscious but ironically enough fails to see awareness. Awareness I see as constant and all pervasive. It is pure awareness that is the mystical experience. In the fall from Grace the idea of self as apart from the Oneness came into being. In the mystical experience this personal self is extinguished and only pure awareness and nothing else remains. It can be described as the Supreme or Universal Self (God) experiencing Itself but that has the implication of subject and object. I also doubt that Steiner was talking about this.

  • KYRANI Nov 13, 2011

    @ EthanT
    It is not okay to kill just because of anger but it might be understandable and in some cases even justifiable. Anger is an emotion that normally (ie in healthy individuals) arises owing to injustice. When a person is violated they get angry. I don’t see anger as a “negative emotion”. If we didn’t get angry with injustice we would not be motivated to work towards a just society. Now let’s take the cases where people have killed for something seemingly trivial. When we look more closely at them we find that we can discriminate and differentiate them into two categories, and broadly speaking one is bad although understandable but the other is evil and unjustifiable. One common game of evil people is to continually maltreat/ aggravate another person by underhanded means. Some aspects are obvious and some are not obvious but that doesn’t matter for the argument here. Initially the maltreated person gets irritated then angry and finally enraged. The incident that “tips them off the edge” so to speak may be trivial but it comes on the back of sometimes months, if not years of continual harassment. The person usually doesn’t understand how they can correctly counter attack (in the mental realm –and very effectively might I add). As they find no relief and their anger mounts, (which is primarily somatic charge up of metabolism) they finally explode and that may mean they kill someone. We need to take into account what the person has been through to understand their actions. The other sort, the evil one is different. An evil person it is true has developed a character structure that has inherent in it rage, hatred and cruelty. I have seen cases where they aggravate another person and they may use the other person’s reaction and sometimes only verbal outburst to justify themselves in committing a crime. Motive is a driving force and while we need to take it into account we need to see a lot more besides in determining what is bad and what is evil. The reason is that good people (non-toxic /not evil people) are not good in that they have done nothing wrong. All have done bad actions of one sort or another. The key difference is that all good people essentially support Justice (the higher Justice not simply the humankind made variety). A good person might have killed but they know their action is wrong and they have remorse afterwards and seek forgiveness and redemption. Evil people, not only do not support Justice, they hold contempt for Justice and they do everything in their power to destroy Justice (which of course is not in their power to do) and to deny Justice to good people. In that case they often succeed and they do so where people are ignorant of their rights and knowledge of their mental abilities. I see Good vs Evil in the sense of the war between Good and Evil, but I don’t see them as “the pairs of opposites” as in having knowledge of one implies the other, as for instance in light and dark, good and bad.

  • KYRANI Nov 13, 2011

    @EthanT
    I’d say that your friends who kill mosquitoes even before they get bitten are still acting out of past experience –not evil. And there is also a self defense consideration here because mosquitoes do carry microbes that can be potentially harmful to some people. So killing them is not only out of annoyance but also for protection. Furthermore if they fully appreciate the matter from nature’s side and the interests of other animals would they still want to eradicate them from the earth? Frogs, as I have observed in my house, have a diet of many other insects including mosquitoes. I tolerate the mosquitoes because I love the frogs. And that means I’m limited. I don’t venture too far into the forest because the mozzies can carry one away, there are so many of them and they are vicious.
    As for the friend you have known since childhood, this is quite another matter. I would say be wary of him. Killing for pleasure is the hallmark of evil. He may only have the potential for becoming evil but chances are he may have been recruited. Recruitment is very serious business as far as evil people are concerned. The overwhelming majority, if not all evil people are recruited either in childhood or by the time they enter their adolescent years. This place is too limited for me to go into this subject but when I launch my website, which should be reasonably soon, I have a section on this matter. I will say though that not all children can be recruited. They must possess certain characteristics. And the training program that they are put through is rigorous, relentless and aggressive. Evil people typically use the torture and killing of animals, senior citizens and other children for the purpose of such training. And I want to alert you to one other associated matter. Evil people “keep good people as pets”. What this means is that some good people they torture, some they torture and kill, but there are also cases where they befriend good people and bend over backwards to present them with the best possible character. These people, whom they are really betraying, are called pets by the evil people. In this way if they are ever in need of a good reference they have one “on tap”. I had, on several occasions, had what I though were really good friends, selfless in their actions, who to my horror I discovered decades later, were evil. Their whole behavior and friendship and acts of kindness were nothing but window dressing. Once I began to work to expose evil they turned nasty, very nasty. Be careful with this friend. Don’t offer any information about yourself and/or your friends and family. Information is the ammunition used to do harm. These people are networked and never act alone. Information obtained, through appearing good and being trusted, gets passed on to others and used collectively to underhandedly do harm. I would not maintain a relationship with anyone these days who shows such signs because one is just exposing one’s self unnecessarily.

  • Anonymous Icon

    dfgdrgww Nov 12, 2011

    About the serpent:

    The existence itself is based on the opposites. Without opposites is only god. We experience bliss when we come closer to the point of balance (peace) - living in the present moment (not past or future), with balanced female and male energies (either when we are in a relationship & we have sex - this is one way and lasts usually not for long, or when we achieve this balance in our body/spirit alone - since in each of us there is male and female part, and they can be balanced through meditation, breathing and other techniques).

    Out of the oneness (god, zero) opposites arise, universe is created. It is like an enormous cycle - the universe expands then shrinks into non existence. Like out of 0 + and - are created. God is one and alone but in the same time he is all that exists. If all opposites meets the result is zero and they all are contained within that zero (oneness, god).

    In that perspective the serpent indeed can be viewed as a liberator - because of it the world appears (along with the possibility for us to evolve and realise who we are).

    About Good vs Evil:

    The life on the planet is organised in such a way that it is not possible for anyone to become only good or only evil - that's when we speak for the common meaning of good and evil. Let's look then not for who eat vegetables or meat, but let's look at the who is more or less close to god. The persons that are more enlightened (higher vibrations, closer to god, closer to the balance point, to internal peace) are the ones that perhaps can be considered as good. And the ones that do not feel the divine (by the way the nature is divine) within or those that feel it, but allow the mind alone (the thinking, the greed, the ego, the separation) to lead them can be considered as bad.

    For example if a man kills another man (self defence - instinctive and natural action) and if the first man is in peace with himself, in peace with the world, with the spirit of the victim - then he has just killed the body, but the spirit is whole. The man should have no anger against the attacker, no fear, but regard him as a partner (in Aikido this is the way you look at your opponent - not as an enemy but as a partner who has a role in the performance of a certain technique). So this man has acted instinctively and the result is what it is - but he remains good although he has killed another. But on the other hand, if a man just think bad for something in the world or hate somebody - then he is bad because he does not realise the oneness of all and the fact that he is thinking bad or hating himself. And if he can go closer to the point of balance until he is healed by the blissful love there, he will be like a newborn - forgiven and good. That's why one must forgive and love - because this means to forgive to himself. But you can react according to the nature and instincts when you are attacked physically or you need to eat.

  • Anonymous Icon

    EthanT Nov 12, 2011

    And, one more post just to say: Thanks all for your posts. They have been thought provoking.

  • Anonymous Icon

    EthanT Nov 12, 2011

    One other thing I should mention, is if we define the highest good as "Godly", as you state here:

    "The other way as you inquire is not to redefine good but to redefine the highest level of selflessness acts as “Godly” and then the rest is good"

    And, let's go ahead and define evil in the way you did, as well.

    Are we not back into a pair of opposites? "Godly acts" and "Acts of True/Real Evil"? "Acts done in complete selflessness" and 'Acts done in full selfishnsess"? "Acts of the Highest Good" and "Acts of the Highest Evil"?

    In a way, it is a pair of opposites even more diametrically opposed then the original "good vs evil" in the OP.

  • Anonymous Icon

    EthanT Nov 12, 2011

    As far as the connection to Rudolph Steiner I mentioned I would make in the post below, let me add another quote, or extend the one I listed below.

    'Evil is nothing in and of itself. Evil is lack of consciousness”

    He did go on to say something along the lines of ( forgive me if the quote is not perfect. All this can be found in his Philosophy of Freedom book)

    “True evil is evil done in full consciousness”

    Perhaps we can find agreement here?

    But, Rudolph Steiner did NOT make a distinction between evil and bad , as you did. He made a distinction between “evil” and “true evil”.

    Are we back into semantics again here?? I would say so.

    (In addition, he also said there are very few souls, if any, within the the world today, that are capable of that kind of evil. They will come in the future of mankind.)

    Whether the behavior is “evil” or “bad”, or “evil and true evil” does not matter. All the above are behaviors that cause suffering in the world, and exhibit an obvious lack of the true nature of reality – Oneness.

    This, of course, begs the question, how can anyone, or anything, REALLY exhibit “true evil” with FULL consciousness? How can you hurt the other, when the other is YOU. How can you hurt the other when the operating in a field where “subject and object” are no longer meaningful concepts?

    This is where I have problems with R. Steiners idea. By “full consciousness” , did Steiner mean “Nirvana”, or the “Kingdom of Heaven”. I don't think so.

    If you have any insight into this, please feel free to share.

  • Anonymous Icon

    EthanT Nov 12, 2011

    Hi Kyrani,

    First, let me just say I appreciate what are you trying to say about evil. In fact, I will even make a connection to Rudolph Steiner and what you said, and it may be a place where we will find some agreement. However, I didn't want to get into his ideas of the threefold social order here, but that would be a worthy topic in it's own right.

    My problem is with where you draw the line on what you call evil and what you call bad. For example, I don't kill the mosquitoes until I get quite annoyed by them, as you said. But, that's like saying it's okay (or, at least not evil) to kill as long as you are driven to anger first? Does that apply to murder too?

    However, plenty of my friends take distinct pleasure in killing them right away. They didn’t use to. But, after so many trips, they would like to see “mosquitoes eradicated from the Earth”, as they would say. Are they evil? One of my good friends who I have known since childhood, used to torture insects and other smaller creatures when he was young. Much to my dismay, when I met up with him later on in life, he still does this with insects apparently. But, he is a great friend and one of the most selfless people I know towards other people I know. Is he evil?

    Next, if you look into the study of sociopathic behavior, or serial killers, and such, the line becomes fuzzy again. There are some “killers” that underwent brain damage/alteration of some sort and so lost there sense of empathy. From the aftermath of the accident, or mental disease, and the alteration of their personality, as a result, they become sociopathic killers, who derive pleasure from killing They were perfectly decent people (with some bad?) before this, holding a job, family, etc, and they they are killers afterward. Did they go from redeemable to nonredeemable evil, from an accident, or mental disease, that was no fault of their own.

    There are so MANY examples you can think of to make it very fuzzy of where you could draw the line between what is evil and what is not.

    What if we lived in a society where this distinction was drawn and the death penalty existed. Would you feel comfortable drawing the line between what is true evil and what is not. Who is redeemable and who is not? Who is put to death and who is not?

    It is almost similar to what Tam Hunt said in an issue of “Noetic Now” a ways back, about defining life. The problem there is that scientists cannot find a clear line where life begins and ends. Tam's went on to say if no clear line can be found, it may just be because on does not exist.

    Similarly, if you took up the study of human behavior, specifically towards sociopathic and criminal behavior, in a scientific way, it would also be hard to find a clear place to draw the line between evil and bad, in the ways you define them.

  • KYRANI Nov 12, 2011

    @EthanT
    And as you mentioned Rudolph Steiner, let us consider what he said. Steiner considered that it is socially destructive when the three spheres (they being culture, economics and politics) are not separate. If one of these attempts to dominate the others then serious consequences are manifest. So if religion dominates government for instance then such a government dominates the other areas of society. In capitalism the economics dominate government and ultimately culture and if we have the other extreme socialism then it will dominate culture and economy. Under circumstances of good and bad these three can still be kept separate, more or less. I don’t see that they can be kept completely separate because we can’t and don’t live in three separate realities. However if you have networked people who can remain unseen for who they are and how they are networked, infiltrated throughout the social structures, then you cannot maintain any sort of separation of these three key areas. You end up with hegemony and thus social degradation on all levels is unavoidable, which is precisely what we are seeing in the world today. If it is not recognized and/or allowed to continue then social destruction is the end result. Is this not absolute evil?
    But I will go further because your quotes are indeed extremely relevant.
    1. Evil is NOT a lack of consciousness. Evil people know full well what they are doing. They mean to violate knowing that they violate and they do it without any conscience. If you meant to write without any conscience, then yes I would agree with you. They do not have any feelings for other people and they do not regard life at all. They aim to violate the moral code in the very worst ways possible and to do it for fun. Take a pedophile for instance, of whom it is claimed they just can’t help themselves, they are attracted to children. If this was true it would be a lack of consciousness. However a pedophile grooms the child for weeks, sometimes for months and a part of that grooming makes the child see themselves at fault and the pedophile as the victim. That takes consciousness of what is being done. You can’t set about to brutally condition a child with the view to raping them and on a long term basis and say they are not conscious of what they are doing.
    2. The statement "You only have free will to the extent that you are conscious of what motivates you to action" I agree with. This is a key reason why evil people work under the cover of darkness so to speak. This darkness is not the lack of light but the lack of the light of knowledge. They look to blindside a person that they target in some way, that is they use betrayal, deceit. When a person doesn’t understand what they are up against, when they don’t know and cannot perceive the truth of their situation they have no way of defending themselves because they cannot use their free will. In reality evil people are powerless because they can only make suggestions.

  • KYRANI Nov 12, 2011

    @EthanT
    The other way as you inquire is not to redefine good but to redefine the highest level of selflessness acts as “Godly” and then the rest is good. I can well relate to your attitude to mosquitoes when they get to be too troublesome because I live in the tropics and in a forest. However no matter how much pleasure you get from killing them when you become maddened by them your actions are not evil. If you got great pleasure in killing them without them ever biting you then you could say that your actions are evil. Evil is the willful injustice done to the innocent for pleasure. And in your second example even if you robbed the bank with the intention of harming /killing anyone that got in your road is not evil. It is bad and criminal and deserves punishment but it is not evil. If however you went to rob the bank with the expressed intention of killing a few people, who remained passive and hid themselves under the table, to get some kicks while you were there, that is evil. Yes we can call it bad and criminal too and certainly is deserving of punishment. However it is important to make a distinction when it comes to evil. A criminal is redeemable. An evil person is not redeemable. Worse still the manner in which they operate means they necessarily need to be networked with others. The foul games that they play cannot be played by one or two people. Often there are a large number of evil people involved. The individual that is targeted is up against a faceless mob. The ones that they do see they believe to be friends because the evil person is two faced and always uses betrayal to get close to the non-toxic /good person to do them harm. And the harm is not done in an obvious manner. It is always a stab in the back.
    I don’t know what you mean by absolute evil. I have seen many evil people and seen their actions and I don’t see any real hierarchy in the evil that they do. In their networks there are no leaders, there are no formal organizations of evil and there is no signed up membership but like gangs they do have deadly codes of conduct. The networks are composed of levels alright but these are in the degree of power these people have in so much as what contacts they have made, what positions they hold in society, how much they earn and so on. The networks are many and they are loosely interconnected through their “membership of sorts”, people knowing other people who are like minded and who cooperate in playing foul games. These people exist in all areas of society (I know evil people who are doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs, police etc.) and this is a very critical part of their power in doing harm to unsuspecting people. Because they are networked they can pull strings from many areas in a person’s life to try and unravel that person’s life.

  • Anonymous Icon

    EthanT Nov 10, 2011

    Kyrani,

    Sounds like you took what you consider to the the most "bad", redefined that as evil. I don't mean any offense, but isn't this just semantics? Why not do that in the other direction too. Label only the mostly Godly acts done with the highest level of selflessness as "good", and what we normally call "good" deeds get redefined as something else altogether?

    Also, I hike in the Sierra Nevada a lot. In July, the mosquitos come out in force. After getting bit a hundred times, I have to admit I take a distinct pleasure in killing as many as I can that land on me, before I get bit. And, I do that every time. Is this act evil? What if I robbed a bank with the intent of harming no one physically, but accidentally shot a security officer, which I took no pleasure in. Is this act now simply "bad", while killing the mosquitos was "evil".

    I personally think evil comes in many levels. Life exists only in the shades of grey between the two concepts of absolute good and absolute evil, which don't exist in actuality.

    But, let's take a look at this from another perspective, courtesy of Rudolph Steiner. I may not quote him perfectly here, but it gets the point across.

    (1) "Evil is lack of consciousness"

    (2) "You only have free will to the extent that you are conscious of what motivates you to action"

    I think these two quotes, taken together, have a lot of deep meaning behind them, and say a lot as to why "evil" exists.

  • KYRANI Nov 10, 2011

    I completely disagree with the notion that one of the "pair of opposites" is good and evil. I would have said good and bad. There is a far cry between what is bad and what is evil. We could say that the for the lamb or chicken or pig or what have you that got killed for us to eat, their death was something bad for them and good for us, but not evil. The question is what is evil?
    I was told in a variety of way by different "evil" people of the sub-culture or what I call toxic people as to what is meant by "being evil". So from those remarks and my own observances I have arrived at the following definition:-
    Being evil means gaining a "rush of pleasure", much like an adrenaline rush, from doing harm, and most commonly this is doing harm to an innocent person, ie someone uninvolved with and a stranger to the offender(s)/ evil person(s). And by innocent I mean someone who has not done anything harmful or offensive to the offenders/evil persons. And such harm as is done to the other person is done:-
    1. either through passive participation (such as desiring to see harm done and/or benefiting from the harm done in some way), or
    2. through active participation, which includes those calling forth for harm to be done, those aiding and abetting and those who do the actual harm.
    In short evil is not just a bad or unethical action it necessarily carries a pleasure component with it and it is done in a systematic and ongoing fashion. Evil people are never simply potentially harmful, they are harmful every day of their lives. It's lifestyle. They call their foul play a game and they talk about scoring when they do harm or kill someone through excessive stress, eg heart attack.
    If on your plate the meat that you were about to eat had been tortured to death then what you are about to eat is evil. If it was slaughtered humanely, ie without causing unnecessary pain and suffering then we could say it was bad from the animal's point of view that had to die but only that.
    My guru used to say there is no necessity for a background of evil for good to exist. We don't define our ethics by negation of what is bad. I consider there are only two ethical laws when it comes down to it.
    1. to have great reverence (love) for the totality of Reality (which has both a material and a non material aspect) and
    2. to treat others as equals in relationship or to relate in such a way as to sustain equality. This points us in the direction to fight to expose evil and prevent it from being able to destroy all that is good, whic I do not believe is possible. However evil has established itself to the point where it has reached a critical level.

  • Ankur Nov 07, 2011

    As you said, Good and Evil are the two sides of the same coin.
    Each one is necessary for the other. Without evil we can't experience good. We won't know the feeling of "Good."
    They contemplate each other. It is written that evil came because of desire. And desire caused lust. Lust caused Greediness. And greediness in turn causes destruction. At the same time, desire also caused construction. Desire or need caused creation. So how can the same thing cause both Construction and Destruction? :)
    Both are necessary for a balanced life. Just like matter/anti-matter, +ve/-ve, et cetra.

  • ProtectiveAngel Nov 06, 2011

    I thought I was clear between good and evil, but after seeing the Star Wars 3 movie, it made evil look different. Annican Skywalker was willing to gain power to save his wife. Fighting off everyone who stopped him from performing good for her.

    Maybe a Bible verse may confuse us more.
    Genesis 11:6-8
    The Lord said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.
    Come, let us go down and CONFUSE THEIR LANGUAGE so they will NOT UNDERSTAND each other."

    This is really strange as I believe in God.

  • Saoirse Nov 04, 2011

    There's another historic take on the serpent in Eden. One early branch of Christianity held that the god of the old testament was an evil god who forbade humans the fruit of the tree, because he wanted to keep them ignorant of their potential, and the serpent was the savior of mankind, who exposed the deception and put humans on the road to enlightenment. Their texts weren't popular with the council of Nicea, of course!

  • Anonymous Icon

    EthanT Nov 03, 2011

    I like that one too Saoirse!

  • Anonymous Icon

    EthanT Nov 03, 2011

    The symbol of the serpent in the shape of a circle, with the head eating the tail, has always been interesting.

    Part of the meaning of this symbol is that "life feeds on life". A pretty horrible realization when you really stop and think about it. This is something the ancients, who personally had to kill their food, had to deal with.

    For us to live, something else must die, whether it be plant or animal.

    So, everytime you sit down to eat at the dinner table, means "evil" for some creature, or some form of life.

    You'll never think about dinner the same way again, lol.

    Yet another reason it is so hard, in the Eastern view of things, to completely remove yourself from Karma and Samsara, the round of rebirths. It's also an explanation behind the almost paranoid behavior of some beliefs like Jainism.

  • Anonymous Icon

    EthanT Nov 03, 2011

    Hi mppulley,

    That has always been one “take” on the Garden of Eden.

    Man used to walk with God in the cool of the day, representing a state of consciousness that was unaware of good and evil, or the temporal field of opposites.

    Then, along came the serpent, who enticed us to eat of the apple of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil). Suddenly man and women notice they are different and naked and cover themselves. They are now conscious of the temporal opposites, good and evil , male and female, etc.

    The fact that Lucifer shows up as a serpent isn’t random either. The serpent has been a Universal symbol for transformation, due to the shedding of its skin. And, so there is the serpent, as man undergoes a radical transformation.

    Also, tracing the meaning of Lucifer back to the original Latin, his name means “Giver of Light”. He gave us the gift of knowledge and the concomitant gift of free will. But, he gave it to us too early.

    So, before we ate of the tree of eternal life too, we were thrown out. In other words, we started the round of rebirths in the physical plain, the field of action and temporal opposites.

    Here we are learning to exercise our free will and making a lot of mistakes along the way, in other words “sinning”. Tracing the word sin back to its original meaning, it simply means “to miss the mark”. (Where all the guilt came from in Western religions around the concept of sin, is itself an interesting lesson in psychology.) Suffering is one sure way to learn the hard way, hence the old saying, “suffering as a blessing”. And, since we are all in this together and inextricably entwined in more ways than we can imagine, we also cause a lot of suffering on our fellow man.

    Christ is the path back to the “Garden”, as to replicate the pattern of His life, is to eat of the tree of eternal life.

    But, the real trick is that we never actually left the “Garden”. It is all around us. As our consciousness evolves, we will one day become aware of that.

    “The kingdom of Heaven is spread out upon the Earth but men do not see it”

    Of course, all this is paralleled in other religions too.

  • Saoirse Nov 03, 2011

    Arlo Guthrie's version, from his monologue on the unneutron bomb: "You can't have a light without a dark to put it in." I always liked that,

  • Anonymous Icon

    mppulley Nov 03, 2011

    Evil exists simply because humankind was granted freedom. We can choose to love (good), but because we have a choice we can also choose to hate (evil). Some people, for whatever reason, either consciously or not, choose evil. Heaven, whatever definition/dogma you apply to it, is the definition of perfect goodness. It is the absence of evil and therefore the absence of good as we perceive it. But our perceptions are extremely limited. Until we reach heaven/nirvana etc.we can have no accurate perception of perfect goodness. Our perception will always be tainted by the existence of evil.

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