Back on track !!

Posted May 15, 2011 by charliet in Open

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commented on June 7, 2011
by manuga



I am seeing more and more discussions which are jibberish and meaningless with no proof of what is claimed or even an attempt to forward the IONS cause. Lets get back to some meaningful discussions and helping one another to find proof or direction in our attempts to find proof of what we all seek. I am not saying don't post your ideas and look for help to further your search. I am saying seek the truth, not posting an unproven idea and calling it truth. We have here an opportunity to receive endless ideas and suggestions from many learned and intelligent people, ask and you will receive help and direction, but lets not call unproven ideas fact.

  • Anonymous Icon

    manuga Jun 07, 2011

    Hey Charliet, thank you so much for your reply.
    It's now much clearer what was your purpose and I feel reassure about the fact that
    we can here express our ''findings'' even though not yet completely explainable from the logic point of view..
    But feelings and intuitions are facts! and it's intresting to share them .. as it's very likely to bomp into very valuable point of views
    and be inspired to seek in on a new way, if the puzzle still miss some pieces.
    Happy to be on the same wave! happy to have discovered IONS
    Thanks ALL,))

  • Matthew Gilbert Jun 06, 2011

    Yes, thank you, charliet. "Noetic science" is an emerging and evolving field of study and interest that draws people with all kinds of experiences and motivations. Our hope here at IONS is indeed to keep the discussions as open as possible, and to allow the wisdom of the collective to sort of keep things in order. We are paying attention, though, and continually impressed with the general quality of the posts and the willingness of this community to keep exploring and asking questions...

  • Fallensoul Jun 05, 2011

    Nice challenge Manuga with a great response by Charliet. Seems like we're back on track!

  • charliet Jun 05, 2011

    Hi manuga

    Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression. What I was referring to in the original post were the growing numbers of "members" stating things like "I know all, come to my web site and see" or the obvious "new age tarot card readers" who believe they are in touch with the all and can direct us all there. Okay the rant is over.

    The majority of us here on this site are intelligent, logical people. We do not believe that magicians actually levitate or a coin appears out of thin air. We look for the why and what behind all things, we seek and when we find we do not just accept, we try to find the why and what behind our new discovery. We seek to "prove" what we have found and believe to be true, some of this is only personal, some should be shared, but in sharing we need to present it as "this is what I have found", "try it and see if it works for you", it should not be presented as absolute truth for everyone until everyone can verify it.

    "Proof" can be in many forms, not just hard scientific fact. Here is a personal example, I have been classified as a medium, not by me but by others. In the past year I became interested in and began working with EVP (electronic voice phenomena) recordings. I have a background as a professional audio engineer so the debunking of EVP being, radio stations or making voices out of nothing, etc was easy for me. Did I receive voices? Yes. Were they intelligent? Yes. Did they tell me things, events etc that I could not know? Yes. Did I try working with other people to receive information about them that I could not know? Yes. Were these pieces of information, past, present and future verifiable or did they come true? Yes. Do I have verifiable knowledge of where I am getting this information or from whom I am getting this information? Yes.
    So! Do I now present this to you as undesputible fact or do I simply present you with what I have found, answer questions you may have and encourage you to try it and share your findings with me? I prefer to do the later, for I am not an expert in this field nor do I believe anyone is. You may be able to provide me with insight by discussing it with me.

    This to me is what IONS is about. Seeking, sharing and discussing our "thoughts" and our "discoveries". Asking about the things we wish to know or have heard about. We are all at different levels in our search, some just starting out, some of us old souls.

    IONS is the place for us to share and learn, not to be redirected to some web site where a self proclaimed whatever can guide us as they are "experts". LOL


  • Anonymous Icon

    manuga Jun 05, 2011

    Hello charliet,
    Luckly Fallensoul aready replied exhaustively to your comment which confused me quite a lot.
    Perhaps I wrongly fathomed the purpose of noetic or of these open discussions.
    I ve just jointed this site for 3 days, very happy to have discovered that there is a new science wanting and trying to explain certain 'intangible'
    aspects and power of the humans and that there are people eager to find out new pieces of experiences, collect datas in order to come out with new statements about our repressed power.
    I replied to some of the questions in the discussion sector.. but now I don't know anymore if my experience
    (with or without references - with or without proofs) is bothering you or the entire purpose of the discussions of this site.
    English is really not my mothertongue and for the moment, I can express myself only in simple ways. Which shouldn't be a problem, since
    I ve always heard that truth is simple and can be everywhere.
    but here a proof about proofs, that will maybe help you understand my point.
    Fritjof Capra - theoric physician - wrote in several of his books that by studing ancient spiritual texts, like Vedas, he realized that precise science - always seeking for proofs to its discoveries - didn't even get to the simplest questions we have been asking for the time being. Spiritual textes are far more advanced!! Wanting proof at any costs will considerably slow down the whole undestanding process.
    I wonder if noetic has to go through ONLY the same proof-minded process, which by the way showed to revise constantly its theories...
    Perhaps there are other ways to experiment the truth or there are other ways to find out proofs.
    Shall I prove my experience to share it with IONS people? how do I do to prove my thoughts?
    Are my thoughts of any interest to this quest? Do I have to make a scientific search otherwise it's not valuable?
    Don't you think that by a single simple experience you could fathom something new? or get a new idea to explain something difficult to communicate?
    Sincerely and respectfully,

    thank you again Fallensoul

  • Fallensoul Jun 05, 2011

    Hey Charliet

    The overview here: http://noetic.org/about/overview/ really clarifies IONS focus on consciousness, healing and education nicely. In any case there will always be other posters with vested interests and I'm sure IONS is monitoring this in the background and future moderation or policies will be introduced for the parasite posters.

    Regarding the way we go about obtaining knowledge and facts. There are primarily two ways. The ascending and the descending paths and IONS integrates both approaches. The ascending path of knowledge is about discovering for oneself the facts through scientific rigor of experimentation and exploration. One gains pieces of knowledge and tries to fit that in and form a reality within one's mind. The descending path of knowledge holds to the view that we cannot understand everything by empiric methods and that there exists transcendental knowledge that is not man-made that details this world and beyond. One has to enter seriously into such a source of knowledge and test its conclusions, through practice before making a judgement about its having all the answers. With the ascending process one may find the right pieces of the puzzle that fit, but it takes a much longer time and it carries the risk of not knowing that one has arrived at the final picture or having the right puzzle pieces fitting but the final picture is not consistent, because in the ascending process you're making guesses that this piece is the right piece, whereas in the descending process you get the whole picture upfront and try to see if that picture is consistent with the reality presented by other schools and what your own experiences tell you. Much easier to make progress.

    Nevertheless it is a fact that if one is really sincerely searching for the truth, they will be directed from within and without. So our barrier is not the access or method to gaining knowledge, but the strong and sincere desire to want to understand who we are and what consciousness really is all about. If you become serious about solving the problems of life, the controller of the universe certainly will help you.

  • charliet May 23, 2011

    HI Fallensoul

    Thanks for your comments. I notice in the commenting guidelines that the discussions are not to be used for promoting or advertising, I have noted some members plugging their books or commercial websites, maybe they should read the guidelines.

    I agree that not all proof needs to be scientific as it tends to be narrow by definition. Logical and common sense proof etc are very acceptable. Science helps us to establish guidelines by which to investigate and find proof but we must be willing to accept that not all things can or will be explained by science. Proof of any kind simply means we are on the right track, providing that it is proof.

    I see your point about not mixing different ideas and truths but I feel that when done properly it can be beneficial. In my opinion no one teaching, belief or theory has all the answers. What ever you are seeking is like a puzzle, as with most puzzles some of the pieces are missing, if a piece from another puzzle box fits, perfectly, not jammed in, and the puzzle comes to life and flows as it should, chances are that it is the right piece, even if from another puzzle.

    I do enjoy IONS and the discussions, as you said, lets move forward and progress.


  • Fallensoul May 22, 2011

    Yes thats true Charliet. Unmoderated discussion forums tend to evolve like this -- it seems to me IONS is trying it out -- giving everyone a chance to express their ideas and let the reader find what is valuable for their own worldview. It took me a while to find the commenting guidlines which help focus these ideas:

    Ofcourse your statements bring into question what we consider proof. There are different kinds of proof: Proof by empirical methods, logical proof and scriptural proof by authority. If you're alluding to the fact that we should try to focus on scientific proof as a basis for our discussions, while this may be a progessive way of moving forward -- we have been discussing that scientific proof has its limitations . Proofs by other methods should be considered.

    I agree though that it should be progressive. But that means the reader has to decide, which worldview they wish to take. If they are satisfied with scientific empiric proof as reality, then follow that sincerely. or if you acknowledge Eastern sciences then accept and follow that idea as your primary source of knowledge using other proofs to support your main idea. The idea of mix matching and trying to figure out reality by mashing up various ideas from various sciences and spiritual schools, is a recipe for confusion. Find a path that you can accept as true knowledge, accept and understand the entire school of thought with the help of a guide or teacher and then follow that until challenged by another school of thought. Avoid mixing it all up in your mind. This is not the recommended process either by the scientific or spiritual community. That sort of speculation where we come up with ideas from various sources and present that is certainly lamentable, if not cheating -- even though the points may well be valid because you've borrowed from either school, still the conclusions will almost always be faulty.

    It is also lamentable that proof by authority or Eastern knowledge is not accepted by mainstream science being deluded with the idea of scientism. Yet this is a very common sense way of getting to know things. For example. When you were a child, if you asked your mother, "Whose my daddy? " and your honest mother replied, "Here is your father." The child accepts that knowledge from authority and moves on with their education. Yet the special ed mainstream scientist child, would argue, "I don't accept what you say, mum. I want his DNA sample, so i can prove this is true." Imagine if we tried to learn about the world growing up, with this approach. Not very far -- exactly whats happening with modern science now. The idea that the body is seperate from the self is the ABC of spiritual understanding. Its barely at the entrance of the door. Theres so much more.

    When will the special ed mainstream child pass K Grade? Certainly not by trying to find proof for a reality outside our faculty of the mind and the senses.

  • Anonymous Icon

    Shankar Narayan May 21, 2011

    Most of the Discussions are an example of the tower of babel... everybody makes some noise but neither can understand the other or even convey their viewpoint... People do have the "post and forget" mentality and some needlessly comment on topics... And we definitely have to sift through dirt endlessly to gain a nugget of gold!

  • Anonymous Icon

    Jim Centi May 20, 2011

    i sense that the interest in these discussions is dwindling. Perhaps we should discuss what could be done about that. Has anyone considered emailing what you consider to be a good post to friends and invite them to join us?

  • PonsAnimus May 16, 2011

    Good point ! ;) - I saw that there are more to notice this point e.g. TheOldMan. - I really hate the "post and forget" mentality, which seems to become more and more obvious here. There are already more than enough of that kind of forums.
    I would also appreciate, if the members go for a bit more 'open' profil as well.

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